Painting Fire Extinguishers

[stewbow]

I have a customer who owns a hotel, and he's painted all of his Fire Extinguishers to match his decor.
Anybody know the regs on this?

Thanks

Stuart

[Richard Earl]

hi

tell him he isnt allowed to paint extinguishers under bsen3 1996 they MUST be red with 5% colour dipicting the type

[TallyHo]

I have a customer who owns a hotel, and he's painted all of his Fire Extinguishers to match his decor.
Anybody know the regs on this?

Thanks

Stuart

I've heard it all now.

I suppose he may get away with it if his decor is red.



I was once talking to the manager of a large hotel who was training his own staff and doing his own FRA.

We got chatting about competency and he stated that he was competent because the last hotel he was the manager of had burnt down, so as he had experienced his building burning down this made him competent.

[PhilB]

hi

tell him he isnt allowed to paint extinguishers under bsen3 1996 they MUST be red with 5% colour dipicting the type

The extinguishers may not comply with BSEN3 but that is a standard not stautue law. There are no musts Richard,  his risk assessement may be able to justify this. But it's a big MAY!

[John Webb]

But if it is an extinguisher made before BS EN3 with the old body colouring in total, it should surely remain that way? I recall much publicity being given to this to reassure occupiers they didn't have to repaint older extinguishers - provided they were not life-expired, of course.

I think there was concern that operating instructions, date of manufacture and LPC/BAFE markings etc might get covered up, hindering maintenance etc.

[TallyHo]

They are supposed to be coloured as per the recognised colours.

So if he has a water extinguisher in a room with blue décor and he has painted it blue, then that would not be acceptable.

Hopefully he hasn’t got any rooms with camouflage décor, otherwise the extinguishers may be difficult to find.

[AnthonyB]

Fire extinguishers do not have to be red - only those seeking kitemarking and approval to BSEN3 need do so.

Where aesthetics are important stainless steel/polished aluminium extinguishers are available and always have been - they are perfectly legal and widely used.

Go back long enough and you could buy them in different colours - in my archives I have a 30's brochure for the konus kemik extinguisher with 9 different finishes illustrated so they could complement the decor of the home or workplace.

The servicing company should be noting the deviation on the maintenance label to cover themselves - if operating instructions etc are obscured they should be deemed 'unfit for service' as they would not be safe as a layperson would not be able to identify the contents, safe usage and operating method. Each extinguisher would need to be suitably signed as they are not red & staff training to include how to identify them.

Ideally if the hotelier was that bothered he should have put his hands in his pockets & bought stainless effect extinguishers and a load of signs.

If I was an enforcer i'd go over the whole place with a fine toothcomb as litle tricks like painiting extinguishers are normally indicative (in my experience) of poor management and usually I find more dangerous 'quirks' & breaches.

As for law, its difficult - if the type, size and location are suitable then they could only be picked up on the maintenance side if they aren't being serviced, or are marked up as unfit by a maintenance company if they are serviced. If they are serviced and not marked as unfit then you could do the servicing company as not competent and the hotelier as not using competent persons to maintain systems.

[TallyHo]

Anthony

I agree about the fact that the extinguishers do not have to comply and there are many steel/polished versions available; but surely if we are using the new guides as reference we should abide by their recommendations.

Fore example, the guides state.

'Extinguishers manufactured to current standards (BS EN 3-7)79 are predominately red but may have a colour-coded area, sited above or within the instructions, denoting the type of extinguisher.  Most older extinguishers, manufactured to previous standards, have bodies painted entirely in a single colour which denotes the type of extinguisher. These older extinguishers remain acceptable until they are no longer serviceable.'

'The following paragraphs describe the different types of extinguisher. The colour referred to is the colour of the extinguisher or the colour coded area.'

They then go on to describe the use and colour of each extinguisher.

There is no mention of any other colour being used; or not used for that matter.

This obviously leaves a lot of scope for debate.  At the moment steel/polished versions seem to be acceptable, but if a company started to produce purple or camouflage extinguishers, do you think that they would be accepted in the same way?

What about the RP who has a shop full of polished extinguishers, I wonder if they are aware that their extinguishers are not manufactured to current standards.

[Richard Earl]

:mad:

hi

tell him he isnt allowed to paint extinguishers under bsen3 1996 they MUST be red with 5% colour dipicting the type

The extinguishers may not comply with BSEN3 but that is a standard not stautue law. There are no musts Richard,  his risk assessement may be able to justify this. But it's a big MAY!

in 2000 bs revised 5306 part 3 to say extinguishers should comply to bsen3 , if they need replacement.  it is only incompitent people/companies who will allow anyone to paint extinguishers a different colour bar red/ on the old cream, black etc.

even with a risk assessment it is absalutly stupid to allow this to continue.
as for stainless steel,  i have been told by bafe ithey arent best practise to mix and match them.

i think we need to apply basic common sence here and tell the person to replace them asap

[Ken Taylor]

I don't think it illegal for the owner to paint them - although you'd need a good explanation as to how the occupants will readily recognize the different types in an emergency situation - so as to make adequate provision for their safety.

[PhilB]

even with a risk assessment it is absalutly stupid to allow this to continue.
as for stainless steel,  i have been told by bafe ithey arent best practise to mix and match them.

i think we need to apply basic common sence here and tell the person to replace them asap

Richard,
You cannot tell the person to replace them, you may consider it appropriate to advise them. But the fact that they do not comply with BSEN3 or keep BAFE happy does not necessarily mean they need replacing. Prescription is not the way forward, even if you consider this to be ABSALUTLY SToooopid.

[Graeme]

I had a similar situation with a customer who painted his mcp pink to match the walls.At fisrt glance you can't notice it and in a situation i would bet it would be missed.

[AnthonyB]

Stainless steel extinguishers comply in all aspects other than colour if supplied by reputable manufacturers & are as good at putting fires out and not exploding as their red counterparts. Suitable signage and staff training overcomes other objections.

If you got rid of stainless exts you would just end up with them being hidden away unsigned where no one can get them - & with the current inspection regime unless a high risk buliding this wouldn't get spotted for years

[messy]

I am amazed at the angry 'Tell them they can't do it' and 'tell them to replace them' precriptive attitude here.

I work on the principle that the customer is (nearly) always right and if they can justify them being orange, brown or dayglo pink - with certain safegaurds- what's the problem?

They are designed to extinguish fires and perhaps assist in keeping an escape route available. As long as they can forfill these roles (and safely) I am happy.

As has been mentioned before, issues such as: staff training, not painting over instructions and maintainence (especially as rusty, overpainted extinguishers are not ideal) are what I'd be looking for.

I'd probably expect wall signage and a colour which is not in use by other types of extinguisher (ie a water ext painted blue). I'd also advise the RP to record the details on their FRA and inform their Insurance company of the non standard kit

As an IO, my role has changed from precriptive FPA Gestapo to helping the punter (RP) achieve a safe building even if that means thinking outside the box. Perhaps I am in the minority as I still regularly hear in my office (and on this site) "You can't do that". In fact in this FRA led world, often you can!

[afterburner]

Perhaps Messy's comments gets to the real point, who actually 'owns' the Fire Risk Assessment? We, collectively, give the best of our competent advice based on British Standards, and European Standards, and this guidance document ,and that published information, but if the 'owner' chooses to ignore this, surely it is only the Courts who will actually decide if the 'owners' decisions are wrong. And the 'owner' will only end up in Court if an Enforcing Authority consider the departure from normally accepted customs and practices to be an offence. Painting fire extinguishers a non-standard colour would be open to much 'will we, won't we' discussion within Enforcing Authorities before the topic darkens the doorstep of a Court. So, assuming the correct type of extinguishers are in place, in sufficient numbers, with instructions and all necessary labelling legible, does the colour change cause enforcement action, because it is 'different' if the 'owner' decides to do their own thing?