Kitchens- fire resisting seperation or not?Enforceable or not?

[partymarty007]

when I was in the fire service and inspecting premises such as offices, shops, factories and hotels under certification and say EPH's under social services or whoever... the kitchens were always FR complete with fire door.
In fact our brigade wouldn't let them put magnets on kitchens because a heat detector wouldn't react fast enough.

We would get new premises built and building control always insisted on the old red line around the kitchen!

Mushy, You are so right about enclosing kitchens and I am sure that you used to enclose and underdraw cupboards under stairs back in the day.  Looking back at old FPA 71 certs it was not uncommon. We are now looking at risk appropriate solutions utilsing FRAs, guides, common sense, enforcement and more importantly education.

If any of my department were to put out a letter enforcing FR in these areas I would be questioning them, 'enthusiastically' of course.

[Phoenix]

Marty,

Of course, I'm pretty much with you all the way here.  But just because Mushy might have held the reins too tightly in his day doesn't mean that now we should drop them completely.  You'll agree that we have to hold on to them not too tight and not too slack but "just right" as Goldilocks would have said.

There are occasions when the kitchen should be enclosed for life safety.  They may be few.  Very few in your opinion.  But they are there.

And there are occasions when the kitchen should be enclosed for property protection - schools perhaps.  (For the benefit of other readers, the enclosure may not be tightly around the kitchen but may be around, say, the broader kitchen and dining area together.)

You cannot deny that there are such occasions.

Stu

[AnthonyB]

Not wanting to go off topic regarding 'guides', but remember they are what they are, 'guides' not benchmarks not precsciption but guides to be used with a common sense approach.   However look at what they mean and forget what they are saying, what are they trying to achieve? 

You are right, but looking at prosecution databases & notices issued, they seem to being used as a benchmark by the courts and some FRS.

I'm happy to say that some FRS will listen to alternative risk based solutions and trade offs on a buliding by building basis & had some good liaison with Notts over premises where had the 'traditional/benchmark' been insisted upon & no alternatives considered it would have been time to shut up shop.

[partymarty007]

Marty,

Of course, I'm pretty much with you all the way here.  But just because Mushy might have held the reins too tightly in his day doesn't mean that now we should drop them completely.  You'll agree that we have to hold on to them not too tight and not too slack but "just right" as Goldilocks would have said.

There are occasions when the kitchen should be enclosed for life safety.  They may be few.  Very few in your opinion.  But they are there.

And there are occasions when the kitchen should be enclosed for property protection - schools perhaps.  (For the benefit of other readers, the enclosure may not be tightly around the kitchen but may be around, say, the broader kitchen and dining area together.)

You cannot deny that there are such occasions.

Stu

Stu,  never being one to throw the baby out with the bath water and by respecting the past we should embrace the future. I am off the opinion that in some cases we should enclose with the right provision and for the right reasons. Property protection is one,however my legislation is all about life safety so by enforcing FR I would need to ask what is achieving?

Not wanting to go off topic regarding 'guides', but remember they are what they are, 'guides' not benchmarks not precsciption but guides to be used with a common sense approach.   However look at what they mean and forget what they are saying, what are they trying to achieve? 

You are right, but looking at prosecution databases & notices issued, they seem to being used as a benchmark by the courts and some FRS.

I'm happy to say that some FRS will listen to alternative risk based solutions and trade offs on a buliding by building basis & had some good liaison with Notts over premises where had the 'traditional/benchmark' been insisted upon & no alternatives considered it would have been time to shut up shop.

I am odds with the word benchmark, it may be described as best practice or even a guide.Though the courts are quoting the guides and some proscecutions are going through on this.The FRS need to think long and hard about being taken to court for being 'unreasonable' (chip shop owner Vs HSE) If we are hammering people it will not be long before the good will goes and we get pushed back.

It is good to hear of good enforcement and I would say that in majority of cases education is being used before enforcemnent.

[nearlythere]

Think I have lost count of the number of restaurants I have frequented, including in Europe, lucky retired me, where there are open plan kitchens.
Also think I have lost count of the number of buildings I have gone into where autotmatic sliding main entrance doors have been provided.
Are some guide scribes stuck in a time warp or find it easier to cut and paste areas of new guidance? Maybe we should return to cave dwelling.

[Midland Retty]

Guys guys guys

The issue here is risk assessment - you assess whether or not the kitchen requires F/R, not what we did in yesteryear.

Im with PartyMarty, you look at what you have got, look at what you are going to achieve by requiring the kitchen to be F/R'd and make a judgement based on that

Also what is wrong with open kitchens? I get the impression some of you don't like them! Why not?

[Mushy]

well to be honest this thread is a revelation to me...in all my years doing certification work and working on building control plans... always...but always...when that nasty word kitchen appeared on the plan...out come the red pen 

ahhh those lovely blue guides...

Also was the same with the fire safety modules at moreton (oh the memories...landing partys while 'working' as a syndicate  )

I left the job in September 2006 and obviously it appears since the RRO things have changed a tad!

in hospitals however, the red pen for use on kitchens is always running out

oh while we are here...when is a kitchen not a kitchen?...toaster, microwave..a 'rest room'?...

full on cooker...kitchen?

some lump them all together

[FSO]

I have seen countless fire shutters installed for the the little kitchen in the corner of a village hall were you can practically fall out of the place. Over the top risk assessment I would say!

I do recieve a lot of enquires from parish councils etc asking if they must do this.

On the other side of the coin, I have just asked for a fire resisting shutter to be installed to the serving hatch of a kitchen due to the potential impact of means of escape in a childrens play area.

The scenario is generally the same, with the kitchen in the corner of a fair sized creche. The concern is the ASET due to the fairly low ceiling and a childrens 2 floor play 'maze' (im sure you know the type).

The kitchen is fairly small but has frying, deep fat frying etc on a commercial level.

I think this just reiterates how the FRA can determine if such protection should be required.

[Mushy]

Then again FSO...you can go to countless other 'indoor play areas' where there are say 50 kids with their mums..and the cooking range is open to the floor behind a serving bar...and one near me has been approved by building control and the FA

It  has also been risk assessed since 2006 and ok'd due to the numerous exits from the single story building

it could likened  to a Mcdonalds...but with kids playing on the climbing frames and stuff

[Dinnertime Dave]

oh while we are here...when is a kitchen not a kitchen?...toaster, microwave..a 'rest room'?...

When it’s a food preparation area.

I for one have always tried to keep the red crayon and kitchens apart. But if you use Stu`s example of a flambéing (spell checked) chef - he has a good argument. However, what if the chef does it at the side of your table? Is the answer portable fire resistance? If it is then I thought of it first as retirement beckons.

Anyway what I’m trying to say is that the guides are just guides, they give one solution to a problem usually the most obvious. 

Interesting that such a simply question can lead to this much discussion.   

[FSO]

Then again FSO...you can go to countless other 'indoor play areas' where there are say 50 kids with their mums..and the cooking range is open to the floor behind a serving bar...and one near me has been approved by building control and the FA

It  has also been risk assessed since 2006 and ok'd due to the numerous exits from the single story building

it could likened  to a Mcdonalds...but with kids playing on the climbing frames and stuff

No Mushy on this occasion it cannot be like a macdonalds as there is no suppression fitted.

I fully understand where you are coming from though.

On this occasion there is no way that kids whould be out before tenability is reached. Ok I have not calculated that but that is based on experience.

This is an illegal conversion to an exsisting building that we have picked up after the horse has bolted etc..

Clearly the risk assessment should account for the circumstances and on this occasion there was major non complience in many areas. The premises in question would struggle not to provide FR to the kitchen based on the layout etc.

Plus travel distances are on the limits too without taking into account the 'Maze'.

Justified on this occasion I feel.

On the flip side, there are hundreds which are just gross over provision. As said all along, common sense and a good risk assessment needs to be the lever.

[xan]

oh while we are here...when is a kitchen not a kitchen?...toaster, microwave..a 'rest room'?...

When it’s a food preparation area.

I for one have always tried to keep the red crayon and kitchens apart. But if you use Stu`s example of a flambéing (spell checked) chef - he has a good argument. However, what if the chef does it at the side of your table? Is the answer portable fire resistance? If it is then I thought of it first as retirement beckons.

Anyway what I’m trying to say is that the guides are just guides, they give one solution to a problem usually the most obvious. 

Interesting that such a simply question can lead to this much discussion.    

exactly what I wanted to happen-Thanks for all your comments,it isn't as simple as we always think.Personally I have always looked at the risk assessment route,and agree with the sentiments of the contributors to this thread.
Xan

[partymarty007]

oh while we are here...when is a kitchen not a kitchen?...toaster, microwave..a 'rest room'?...

When it’s a food preparation area.

I for one have always tried to keep the red crayon and kitchens apart. But if you use Stu`s example of a flambéing (spell checked) chef - he has a good argument. However, what if the chef does it at the side of your table? Is the answer portable fire resistance? If it is then I thought of it first as retirement beckons.

Anyway what I’m trying to say is that the guides are just guides, they give one solution to a problem usually the most obvious. 

Interesting that such a simply question can lead to this much discussion.   

I think we need to look past the whole kitchen scenario.  I dont think the 'when its a food preparation area' has much of an relevance when carrying out a FRA.  Asessment of the area should look at the most likely worst case scenario measured against the time for evacuation. 

To assist in the assessment there are certain factors that may have an impact on the fire/occupants. Presence of hi flams or explosives, unsatisfactory structural features or a temporary or permanent work activity using heat#. 

If following this assessment you have a gap its up to the assessor, RP, duty holder to decide what reduction of the risk factors should be included (might even be red crayon time).

#Mushy as you will already have noticed that some of the above is from the 'blue' guide' A fantastic book that should still be referenced but never forget page 1 para 5.

[Mushy]

"Interesting that such a simply question can lead to this much discussion."

oh ok

how many seminars have you been to where you want to ask the obvious question but don't ask cos you think it's a simple question...and everyone else is thinking the same!

to me this forum is all the better for it....no one has ever pulled me up for asking the obvious..and sometimes they are sooo obvious!!     

I will be honest and say that after a long career in the fire service I am a 'red line the kitchen' man and have been still doing that.... it really goes against the grain to do otherwise and I'm uncomfortable not doing it...but hey..I am now coming kickin an screamin into the modernised world...maybe 

[novascot]

Civvy FSO

An enthusiastic Scottish lecturer fellow had exactly the same opinion/explanation as Partymarty on this thread, and his name wasn't too different either....

Couldn't have been me. I had left by then. haha. I always told my students that if persons could turn their back on the fire and walk to an area of safety before the effects of the fire affect them, then that is ok. If the escape route passes the kitchen then it shoud be enclosed. In other words ; do the assessment.

Remember also that we are talking about Life Safety only. If Property Protection or Business Continuity was important then you may re-think.
Yes, red lines were always drawn around kitchens as they were deemed to be areas of high fire risk. I always marked down in Final Assessments if Students red lined the kitchens without giving a reason.