Fire Door plastic plugs in three coloured sections.

[Tom Sutton]

I am aware of the two coloured plastic plugs used to identify fire doors by BWF (now uses labels), BM TRADA and BS 8214:2008. But I can't find any info on a plug the surface of which is split into three coloured sections anybody come across them when conducting FRA’s and have some relevant info.

[Fishy]

These are the ones looking like a wee 'pie' with equal red, white & blue sectors?

I don't think that these designate any partucular fire performance - I seem to recall from a dim and distant past that they might have been a manufacturer's ID - Leaderflush & Shapland I think?  They're still around (based in Barnstaple I think) so it might be worth a call to confirm.

[AnthonyB]

On their current products they use the BWF marking scheme, but there is nothing on their site about older products, so as suggested contact is the best bet.

[Tom Sutton]

These are the ones looking like a wee 'pie' with equal red, white & blue sectors?

This makes sense in accordance with BS 8214 the colour code for 20mins is white, 30mins blue and red for intumescent seals require fixing, this would be one way of marking a 20/30 Fire Door, requiring seals. Now FD 20 timber doors are not usually available so you must use a FD 30 fire door and the intumescent seal still has to be fitted then the triple colour code is no longer required.

[Tom W]

Sorry, when does a seal have to be fitted to a 30 min door?

I seem to remember a lot of these chips being stolen and sold throughout door manufacturers so there is a period when they cannot be trusted.

[Fishy]

The plug design that I was thinking of isn’t the one that has a circular ‘core’ – it looks like the insignia used on Czech Air Force aircraft: http://www.aircraft-insignia.com/page7.htm !  As I said, I don't think that these indicate any particular fire resistance performance.

I really must get out more...

On the need for seals on FD30 timber doors – in ‘olden days’ all the plugs did was to allow the manufacturers to indicate what the performance of their door was supposed to be.  BS 8214 referenced the code, but the doors didn’t have to be made under any particular quality control regime & they weren’t third-party ‘certificated’.  In theory anyone could/did buy or make the plastic plugs & fit them in their doors.  They were much abused and really weren’t a reliable indicator of performance.

These days when you see plugs they tend to be issued under the TRADA ‘Q-Mark’ scheme & the core is in the shape of a tree (see http://www.trada.co.uk/techinfo/library/view/4C47ABE6-5245-4A31-BE50-5315B40F091C/Checking+and+specifying+fire+doors/Plugcard.jpg).  This means that the product is covered under the Q-Mark scheme.  BWF Certifire use a similar code, but they use labels, not plugs.

The only way that you will get a pukka timber FD30 doorset that can work without any visible intumescent seals on the long edges or in the frame jambs is if the intumescent seals are installed under the lippings.  This is a pretty specialist configuration & it’s only really used where clients are desperate not to see any nasty intumescent strips spoiling the look of their doors.  So, if you come across a fire door that only has an intumescent strip in the head of the frame, but nothing visible on the frame jambs or the lippings then have a look at the top of the door & see if you can see the edges of any strips hiding behind the lippings, before you suggest upgrading!

[Tom W]

Good information but it still doesn't tell me why someone would have to have them fitted to 30min doors.

[Tom Sutton]

Sorry, when does a seal have to be fitted to a 30 min door?

To achieve a full 30mins when tested to part 22, without the fire seals the best you can hope for is about 20mins.

Check out http://fire.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4696.0

[Davo]

Tom

definitely Leaderflush, we had loads installed in the 90's in the new stations


davo


will have a trawl through my stuff

[Tom W]

Sorry, when does a seal have to be fitted to a 30 min door?

To achieve a full 30mins when tested to part 22, without the fire seals the best you can hope for is about 20mins.

Check out http://fire.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4696.0

Not true, we have carried out tests.

Fire minister Bob Neil has called on the responsible person of a hotel to carry out a new fire risk assessment in order to resolve a dispute over how to improve fire safety standards.

The enforcing authority and responsible person at an unnamed hotel were at odds of whether to fit intumescent strips and smoke seals on 167 bedroom doors.

The dispute revolves around the requirement of article 9 of the Fire Safety Order, which calls for the responsible person to make a suitable and sufficient assessment of the risks from fire and to record the measures which will be taken.

While the enforcing authority called for the installation of the strips and seals to help reduce risk of injury or death in a fire, the responsible person claimed that a new fire risk assessment will be sufficient as long as the lack of these measures was recorded.

Following advice from the chief fire and rescue adviser, Mr Neil determined that the most appropriate way to comply with article 9 is for the responsible person to prepare a new risk assessment and justify the absence of intumescent strips and smoke seals.

His ruling, based on article 36 of the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005, claimed that the measures are unjustified due to their expense and minimal potential safety improvements.

[Tom Sutton]

Sorry, when does a seal have to be fitted to a 30 min door?

To achieve a full 30mins when tested to part 22, without the fire seals the best you can hope for is about 20mins.
Check out http://fire.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4696.0

Not true, we have carried out tests.

I think Auntie Lin would disagree with you

“BS476:  Part 8:  1972.   This standard developed because of research (Fire Research Station I think) which showed that when fire developed, the pressure in the fire compartment increased, and smoke and hot gases looked for more space to move into.   This led to the development of a positive pressure fire test (Pt  and developments such as fire seals.   To be a Pt 8 door for anything more than 20 mins, it would have had to be tested with a fire seal fitted and therefore, in use would have needed the seal fitted in order to comply with its certification.”

And Fishy

“Seen them tested without the intumescent strips & they do around 15 mins, depending upon construction & fitting.  You can intuitively conceive that the size of the door stop will make no significant difference if the fire is on the opening side of the door, and this is borne out by 'real' tests.”

Could you give us details of your test and the results?

[Tom W]

So if you buy a 30 minute fire door it can only achieve 30 mins if it has strips fitted?

http://www.wickes.co.uk/lisburn-ply-veneer-fire-door-1981x762mm/invt/200294/?source=123_74

"Each door is supplied unfinished ready to lightly sand and paint. Like all Wickes fire doors, they are rated to a minimum resistance of 30 minutes and British Standard BS 476."

So is it a case for trading standards? If they really are that worthwhile why is it not a legal requirement for every door to have them?

How many instances are they activated properly in real life situations?

I appreiciate tone is hard to get in text and on forums. Im geniunely interested and not being argumentative.

[Tom Sutton]

Lets be informal, Piggy I am always trying to learn even for an old fart like me, and argument can be a good way to do this.

Check the advert it says "Certification: For use to achieve BS 476 Part 22 it doesn't say conforms to BS 476 Part 22 and not being a door set it couldn't and what you would need to do to make it conform isn't stated. Obviously I would say one of the requirements would be fix intumescent seals.

What happens in a real fire situation is very subjective I would suspect all the doors to rooms involved in fire,the heat seals will have activated but most in the building will not have.

Why is it not a legal requirement for every door to have them because we are in the age of risk assessment. As for evacuation in stage one I would guess in most situations 7/10 mins would be a reasonable time to get to a place of comparative safety. As a result of monitoring many fire drills I rarely witnessed the whole building taking more than 30 mins. This is why I would like to see full FD30s on staircase enclosures, elsewhere I see some leeway especially with AFD present.

[Fishy]

Sorry, when does a seal have to be fitted to a 30 min door?

To achieve a full 30mins when tested to part 22, without the fire seals the best you can hope for is about 20mins.
Check out http://fire.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4696.0

Not true, we have carried out tests.

I think Auntie Lin would disagree with you

“BS476:  Part 8:  1972.   This standard developed because of research (Fire Research Station I think) which showed that when fire developed, the pressure in the fire compartment increased, and smoke and hot gases looked for more space to move into.   This led to the development of a positive pressure fire test (Pt  and developments such as fire seals.   To be a Pt 8 door for anything more than 20 mins, it would have had to be tested with a fire seal fitted and therefore, in use would have needed the seal fitted in order to comply with its certification.”

And Fishy

“Seen them tested without the intumescent strips & they do around 15 mins, depending upon construction & fitting.  You can intuitively conceive that the size of the door stop will make no significant difference if the fire is on the opening side of the door, and this is borne out by 'real' tests.”

Could you give us details of your test and the results?

Afraid not, Tom - in a previous life I used to run one of the test lab's so I've personally seen 1000+ fire resistance tests, for my sins.  They're all sponsored & paid for by someone (normally the door manufacturer), they're covered by confidentiality agreements & the lab's hold the copyright of the test reports, so I couldn't disclose details, even if I could remember them!

As a general comment, in all those tests, I cannot ever recall seeing a timber door do 30 mins without intumescent seals.  Door stop size makes little difference to fire resistance performance, in my experience.

[Fishy]

So if you buy a 30 minute fire door it can only achieve 30 mins if it has strips fitted?

http://www.wickes.co.uk/lisburn-ply-veneer-fire-door-1981x762mm/invt/200294/?source=123_74

"Each door is supplied unfinished ready to lightly sand and paint. Like all Wickes fire doors, they are rated to a minimum resistance of 30 minutes and British Standard BS 476."

So is it a case for trading standards? If they really are that worthwhile why is it not a legal requirement for every door to have them?

How many instances are they activated properly in real life situations?

I appreiciate tone is hard to get in text and on forums. Im geniunely interested and not being argumentative.

...if you scroll down the page that you hit via the link you gave, it states: "Our self-adhesive intumescent strips need to be attached onto the door or frame. Sold seperately..."

The old 'do they work in real life' question is interesting.  I'm sure that there are examples where they have; I am equally sure that there have been times where they haven't.  At the end of the day, though, our regulators have said that the measure of what is a fire door is a certain level of performance against the fire resistance test & you won't get a timber door to work in that test, to FD30 or above without them. 

Interestingly the whole world tends to use broadly the same test regime, with some fairly minor tweaks, & you'll find these seals installed in new installations in most countries with mature fire safety regulations.  I'd say they're here to stay...