Author Topic: Hollow doors in Small Bed and Breakfast Premises  (Read 1439 times)

Offline kml

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Hollow doors in Small Bed and Breakfast Premises
« on: May 03, 2018, 05:38:32 PM »
Hi all,

can anyone tell me the logic behind the various small B and B Guides disapproval of hollow or "egg box" type doors on bedrooms.
Paying guests states
"Any internal hollow ?egg-box?-type door would not offer adequate protection and should be replaced"
The Scottish Guide states
"Hollow type doors offer poor protection" but does not preclude their use.
The NI guide states that they are "not acceptable"

None of these guides require AFD in the bedrooms for small premises.

If the nearest detector is in the hallway what is the benefit of making up the door? The AFD still requires the same amount of smoke to penetrate into the hall to actuate the alarm and the poorer quality door should lead to earlier detection if anything . Am I missing something or is it a waste of time (and money) upgrading the doors without additional detection?

Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Hollow doors in Small Bed and Breakfast Premises
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2018, 07:40:06 PM »
They wouldn't just have poor smoke control they wouldn't insulate very well and have very short integrity such that the fire and it's effluent would knock out the stair so quickly that even if you had stairwell detection the environment would be a risk of serious harm or death to relevant persons before they could all make their mistake.

Remember it's not North Korea where occupants would immediately jump up to attention and march to safety the second an alarm sounds, there will be variable (& possibly significant) pre movement time.
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Offline kml

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Re: Hollow doors in Small Bed and Breakfast Premises
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2018, 09:44:11 AM »
I appreciate that Anthony, but in a small three bedroom B&b with a live in owner there will generally be a good level of management which will cut down the pre movement time,  and given the size of these places, the time to evacuate is a matter of seconds.

Offline ahmedh

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Re: Hollow doors in Small Bed and Breakfast Premises
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2018, 01:20:39 PM »
To cut down on pre-movement time, do owners stay awake throughout the night? Not AFAIK.

The business owner would need to be able to demonstrate that they are adequately managing the overall risk. Are they happy that they can do that in court.

For the size of premise you describe grade F LD2 would be minimum with solid timber doors. "Do you have paying guests?" document outlines these measure amongst others. I don't believe it makes mention of compensatory factors such as management to enable them to omit solid doors.

Can the business owner demonstrate that what they are doing is equivalent to or better than the guidance that is out there.


 

Offline Owain

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Re: Hollow doors in Small Bed and Breakfast Premises
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2018, 08:03:29 PM »
The layout of B&B premises varies. Not uncommonly round here is a detached or semi-detached house with the house being used for B&B guests, the kitchen at the back being extended to catering size, and then owner's accommodation in a further single-storey extension off the kitchen in the back garden. This means that the main access to the guest area is through the kitchen (shared for catering and domestic purposes) and if that is knocked out by fire the only other access is through the garden, round the side and in through the (locked) front door.

Small B&Bs also often have individual locks to each bedroom, rather than a master pass-key system, making it slower to open all the bedroom doors (and probably requiring both hands to do the "yale" lock and the door handle).


Offline kml

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Re: Hollow doors in Small Bed and Breakfast Premises
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2018, 08:35:20 AM »
Without indulging in the business of "what if"  or "maybe but"  there is no standard layout for these premises so they should be individually risk assessed - a solid door without a door closer is not a fire door and there are lots of examples where hollow body doors have performed well in fire situations. B and B owners do not need to stay awake - it is the job of the fire alarm to wake them. In the days of fire certification there was no requirement for small B&B's to upgrade doors and I cant find where those particular bodies are buried.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 08:48:46 AM by kml »

Offline kml

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Re: Hollow doors in Small Bed and Breakfast Premises
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2018, 11:40:31 AM »
The layout of B&B premises varies. Not uncommonly round here is a detached or semi-detached house with the house being used for B&B guests, the kitchen at the back being extended to catering size, and then owner's accommodation in a further single-storey extension off the kitchen in the back garden. This means that the main access to the guest area is through the kitchen (shared for catering and domestic purposes) and if that is knocked out by fire the only other access is through the garden, round the side and in through the (locked) front door.

Small B&Bs also often have individual locks to each bedroom, rather than a master pass-key system, making it slower to open all the bedroom doors (and probably requiring both hands to do the "yale" lock and the door handle). [/i]



Hi Owain, I'm afraid you've lost this argument as soon as the owner says that his house isn't like this. I have dealt with a lot of these premises and more common in my experience is a three or four bedroom house with a couple of spare rooms to let, Airbnb is full of them. Most of them don't have any locks on the bedrooms. Fire Service advice for years for homeowners is to close all doors at night and Fire Officers will tell you that even a hollow door in the closed position will significantly mitigate smoke and fire damage.

I'm just looking for a reasonable justification to make a small b and b owner upgrade doors where there is a significant benefit for the cost.

Ps if they could be responsible for the apocalyptic scenes described above why don't our Scottish neighbours deem them "not acceptable"

« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 10:35:23 AM by kml »

Offline Fishy

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Re: Hollow doors in Small Bed and Breakfast Premises
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2018, 03:13:07 PM »
...there are lots of examples where hollow body doors have performed well in fire situations...

I'd love to hear of some?  Do tell...

Offline colin todd

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Re: Hollow doors in Small Bed and Breakfast Premises
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2018, 11:53:53 PM »
Ask literally any firefighter and will give you example of fires Fishface, where the lounge door in a dwelling was closed, the louge was burned out and hallway was hardly damaged.n  I can think of numerous examples I have come across.
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Offline nearlythere

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Re: Hollow doors in Small Bed and Breakfast Premises
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2018, 06:18:10 AM »
Ask literally any firefighter and will give you example of fires Fishface, where the lounge door in a dwelling was closed, the louge was burned out and hallway was hardly damaged.n  I can think of numerous examples I have come across.

Certainly the case Dot.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Hollow doors in Small Bed and Breakfast Premises
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2018, 06:19:37 AM »
...there are lots of examples where hollow body doors have performed well in fire situations...

I'd love to hear of some?  Do tell...

Will try and find some pics I have of such a situation Fishy.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline kml

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Re: Hollow doors in Small Bed and Breakfast Premises
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2018, 02:22:32 PM »
Thanks CT and Nearly , I assumed everyone on here would know that.

Offline colin todd

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Re: Hollow doors in Small Bed and Breakfast Premises
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2018, 11:15:11 PM »
Only those that like Almost and I have changed the gears on the crash gear box of a Dennis, put 4 pennies in the phone box to send back the stop message and seen people burned out of their homes by the youthful high spirits of men of standing in the community, while cutting our lines of hose from the nearest hydrant.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Hollow doors in Small Bed and Breakfast Premises
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2018, 08:25:59 AM »
Only those that like Almost and I have changed the gears on the crash gear box of a Dennis, put 4 pennies in the phone box to send back the stop message and seen people burned out of their homes by the youthful high spirits of men of standing in the community, while cutting our lines of hose from the nearest hydrant.

The canvas one at that Dot.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Dinnertime Dave

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Re: Hollow doors in Small Bed and Breakfast Premises
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2018, 01:53:59 PM »
Only those that like Almost and I have changed the gears on the crash gear box of a Dennis, put 4 pennies in the phone box to send back the stop message and seen people burned out of their homes by the youthful high spirits of men of standing in the community, while cutting our lines of hose from the nearest hydrant.

Didn't need money ring the operator and say "Civil Urgent".