Author Topic: Deluge system design  (Read 463 times)

Offline Goodsparks

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Deluge system design
« on: August 07, 2018, 06:45:37 PM »
Is there a specific sprinkler design standard or have tests undertaken on (very) localised deluge systems that have been installed to provide additional protection to an individual (or group of individual) fire doors? Specifically, front entrance doors in PB blocks of flats. If so, can you point me in the direction of the results, or current standards please.`

I can see that some similar tests have been undertaken on otherwise non-FR glazing systems, but couldn't find any links to timber (or composite) materials. 

Thanks

Paul

Offline colin todd

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Re: Deluge system design
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2018, 11:53:10 PM »
ye gods, the world gets madder every day.  Deluge systems for FEDs-you couldnt make it up.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Goodsparks

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Re: Deluge system design
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2018, 07:39:12 AM »
Madness indeed, have you tried to purchase a FED this week though...? The idea is probably only as half-baked as most of the doors on the market.

Offline Fishy

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Re: Deluge system design
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2018, 08:51:53 AM »
NFPA are bound to have a standard that addresses this type of issue, if not this specific one (sprinklers solve all fire safety problems in their world).  List here: https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards.

Barking mad idea, by the way (IMHO)...

Offline colin todd

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Re: Deluge system design
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2018, 11:56:02 PM »
It's astounding, time is fleeting, madness takes its toll.  Name that tune.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Dinnertime Dave

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Re: Deluge system design
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2018, 06:36:51 AM »
It's astounding, time is fleeting, madness takes its toll.  Name that tune.

Let's do the time warp.

I'll get my stockings.

Offline Goodsparks

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Re: Deluge system design
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2018, 12:27:21 PM »
Thanks for the link Fishy, less thanks for the image of scantily-clad Colin doing his late night Rocky Horror Picture Show renditions...

The logic behind the barking mad idea, was that the supply of suitably tested FEDs seemed to dry up suddenly last week.
The nice people at the Mad Hatters, Clowns, Lunatics Guild were very insistent that the certification we'd seen should be studied very carefully (like when you hand over a scottish tenner in a london pub) as there was a strong likelihood that the certificate may have more fire resistance than the door itself.

If an organisation had ordered an initial batch of, say 3500 ish doors and committed to installing them over a couple of years and all of a sudden they couldn't, then alternatives probably needed to be considered. Given the same organisation (like lots of others) quickly committed to installing lots of sprinklers last year, there is a posibility that some of the sprinkler installations may progress prior to FEDs being installed (as bonkers as that is). From a very, very, very simplistic point of view, if a standard existed and we could squirt water on a crap FED from the common areas to make it last a bit longer (not dramatically changing system design), without the issues of leaseholder consultation, future use of size 11 locksmiths, professional door closer removers, security gates etc, then we might be able to make things a bit safer in the mid-long term before the new doors were sorted.

We have now found the supplier of doors and it looks as though we may even be able to install some this year, the madness has been abandoned.

Offline Fishy

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Re: Deluge system design
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2018, 07:19:18 AM »
There's lots of local government organisations that have committed to install sprinklers... without necessarily knowing where the money was going to come from!  I'm waiting for the "...we want to do it, but the nasty Government won't give us the money..."!

There was talk (at one stage) of the NFPA 80a approach being used to mitigate against PE-cored ACM on HRRBs, but I'm not sure whether this ever translated into live projects (loads of issues - means of activation; frost protection; maintenance access etc, etc...).  The approach sometimes used with glass is to drench the risk face with water, so naturally the head(s) would need to be inside the flats.  A true open-head drencher would also need some means of activation (detection etc).

Offline colin todd

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Re: Deluge system design
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2018, 11:14:11 PM »
What makes me smile is that, for most people,  including the Welsh Government, these here sprinkler fings wot is so frigging important don't need to work when there is a power failure, notwithstanding that, at that time, people may resort to candles and set their dwellings alight.  Apparently there is no need for a standby supply to the pump because (as I was told in a thundering email form someone supporting the view of the sprinkler industry) there wont be a fire during a power failure.  I am hoping that he can tell me the numbers of next week's lottery numbers, after which I will not need to earn a living dealing with madness, hysteria and lunatics.

 In the meantime, I think we should recommend taking out all emergency lighting in buildings and remove fire alarm system batteries and use them for computer games..... until of course there are multiple deaths in sprinklered residential premises during a power failure, at which point over-paid lawyers will put it to some innocent who believed the sprinkler geezers that, tell me Mr Con Sultant, you are trying to tell the Court that you arranged for the sprinkler installation that we all know is so vital to everyone's safety that even garden sheds need them, but it never occurred to you that they wouldnt work during a power failure?????????
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates