Author Topic: BA Seacrh procedure with Hose reel  (Read 83585 times)

Offline Andy Cole

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BA Seacrh procedure with Hose reel
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2005, 07:31:08 PM »
You wouldn't have only a TIC though would you you'd have a Hose reel with you aswell!! theres your 'guide' out of the building!
The whole attitude and lack of confidence in GL's seems to me to be sufficent enough reason to get shot of them once and for all!
Billy
In your response to Firetrm you said 'If you have identified it is not a safe system of work, what have you done to resolve it' I believe he has already answered this by saying he is campaigning to have them removed but there are still die-hards out there scared of change!
firetrm
I can assure you I am firmly in your camp, although I must confess I have never had the misfortune of using GL's in anger which is just aswell given how we got on with them in training!
I don't think there is room in the mordern day FRS for Die-harders who are afraid of change!

Offline Billy

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BA Seacrh procedure with Hose reel
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2005, 08:27:36 PM »
Andy

If you get rid of them, what do you use then?

Lack of confidence is no reason on its own to get rid of guidelines!

Campaigning to have them removed is not enough as in the meantime his FRS are still using them on all appliances- therefore his FRS think they are safe!

I take it you are referring to someone else here as a die-hard and are afraid of change as a die-hard would not openly admit to the defeciencies in the current system and try and improve it!!

You also mention that you had problems with them in training and hopefully these problems never included lack of tie off points or not being able to feel the tabs with your gloves on?
If so you really should read all my postings.

I totally agree with your last post about there being no room for die-harders who are afraid of change- I refer to them as dinosaurs and we all know what happened to them!

if you knew me- you would never accuse me of being a dinosaur,        (although I probably have the same size of brain)!

Offline ian gough

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BA Seacrh procedure with Hose reel
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2005, 08:32:08 PM »
Strange how our FBU friends are keeping silent on this.

Offline Andy Cole

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BA Seacrh procedure with Hose reel
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2005, 10:03:39 PM »
Billy,

I wasn't acusing you of being a Die-harder or indeed a Dinosaur (like the analagy!) simply pointing out, as you do, that they are quite rightly a dying breed and in this mordern fast changing FRS there is no place for them!

I disagree, I think that having full confidence in the equipment you are using is essential, you have enough to be concerned about without adding to that the inadequecies of your equipment. I have on a number of occasions suggested that a HR be used instead of a GL and as yet I haven't been given a scenario where this wouldn't be possible, perhaps a little inpractable but not as much so as a GL!.

My comments about the training with GL's was intended to illustrate that the level of training dedicated to GL's is such that I can see a possibility that they will be disposed of in the near future, I must stress that this is only my perception and not any policy that I know of!

As I have also stated in many of my posts I am a new FF and am not in these forums to criticise any others in any way, I apologise if this is how my posts are percieved, I am merely putting accross my opinion just as I am keen to gain as much as I can from your posts perhaps you could use mine as a guide to how a new FF might be thinking?! (that isn't to say that I speak for all or indeed any other new FF's)

With upmost respect,
Andy

Offline scott

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BA Seacrh procedure with Hose reel
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2005, 10:32:59 PM »
Quote from: Andy Cole
Billy,

I have on a number of occasions suggested that a HR be used instead of a GL and as yet I haven't been given a scenario where this wouldn't be possible, perhaps a little inpractable but not as much so as a GL!.
You take your FF media where ever you go, on your way out you take it with you, makes it a little difficult for the next crew to follow the guideline (your hosereel) to the fire.

Offline Lee999

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BA Seacrh procedure with Hose reel
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2005, 08:58:37 AM »
Andy,

How refreshing to hear somebody new to the Service, with such a positive and humble outlook.

Also, I make you right in all that you say above.

We dont need G/L's because we can deal with ALL structural fires by:

1. Pre-plannning/Risk assessing
2. PPV
3. Tactical Ventilation
4. Use of thermal imaging equipment
5. Sectorisation

Billy, you may not agree, but I am positive that all of the above procedures render any form of G/L OTR.

Any scenario or incident you will attend can be effectivly and safely concluded using this approach.

Offline fireftrm

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BA Seacrh procedure with Hose reel
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2005, 11:03:42 AM »
I still maintain that the procedures for a GL are a writtren 'safe sytem of work', but that there are much safer ones, that is how I would use the argument. I can not be convinced that there is a situation where they would be the ONLY option,  nor have you given us any example - the one you tried was for a premises with pre-fixed lines - not one where we would comnsider that laying a line was the ONLY option.

I am delighted that Andy is so mature, professionally, he is a credit to his training and his FRS.

Lee - I can't agree more.

Scott - maybe it does, but safer - which would you rather be doing on the way to a fire  in a building:
going in with a hosereel
following a guideline?
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline Andy Cole

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BA Seacrh procedure with Hose reel
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2005, 12:01:47 PM »
Scott,
I totally agrree with Firetrm, As I have already said before, taking a Hosereel with you to relieve someone at a branch might be a bit difficult but is far safer than following a GL you then hand over the HR youv'e brought in for the team you are relieving to make thier way out with, it couldn't be any simplier than that could it?
Thanks for the words of encouragement guys I'll try and remember my humble begginings when I'm CFO!

Offline Billy

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BA Seacrh procedure with Hose reel
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2005, 06:53:29 PM »
So let me get this right- I am in a BA team with a HR and to get relieved at the scene of the fire, another BA team comes in with a HR, we change over HR's and then my BA team go out with their HR.

Is this the suggestion?

Offline Lee999

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BA Seacrh procedure with Hose reel
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2005, 09:00:29 PM »
Billy,

Let's not get bogged down with specifics. The point being made is that G/L's are no longer needed at fires, for the reasons outlined above.(PPV,Tac Vent,RA,Pre plan,TIC,sectorisation)

I'm sure you will be able to tie Andy(probationary FF) up in Knots over his H/R theory - but is that really the point?

As you(and Mr Gough) are the greatest supporters of G/L's around these parts, why not address the points made against them?

ps Sorry Andy, Im not digging you out. Billy has many more years of experience than your good self, and therefore will have more in depth knowledge.

Offline Andy Cole

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BA Seacrh procedure with Hose reel
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2005, 09:07:56 PM »
Thank you nuff said!

Offline Paul

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BA Seacrh procedure with Hose reel
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2005, 09:21:23 PM »
To be honest Lee I think that must be game set and match.

We can not go on, I think I have lost interest in life talking about guide lines.  I guess I might buy one now though.

Feel like hanging myself if this goes on any longer, so what better, a lovely guide line would do the job just fine.


Any other takers!!

Offline Andy Cole

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BA Seacrh procedure with Hose reel
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2005, 10:05:36 PM »
Psmith

Sorry to keep going on about my shop (getting almost as bad as GL's) but just one last suggestion, If I provide the pulley (at cost obviously) could I use the other end of your Guide line please?

Offline Billy

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BA Seacrh procedure with Hose reel
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2005, 10:09:40 PM »
Sorry for asking a question unrelated to guidelines, but relating to practical operational procedures!

I am really pleased that you all have sorted out the problem and removed Guidelines from every appliance in your FRS and we will never use them, or train with them again!

This has been achieved as every front line appliance must  now be equipped with :

PPV
TIC
Pre-planning and risk assessments for every premises in your area
Personnel who are trained on Tactical ventilation
Plans of additional Sectorisation carried out by the owners for us.

But just in case, when you do the vehicle checks in the morning- make sure the Guidelines have been removed!

Finally, If all your FRS say guidelines should be on appliances- they must think that they have their uses- looks like they  disagree with you!!!

Offline Paul

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BA Seacrh procedure with Hose reel
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2005, 12:06:01 AM »
Billy,

Yes you have a point.   Now what you must understand is that no one on this forum has ever said there is a quick fix to the issue of using or not using guide lines.  If you trawl back through the threads you will see that mine and other threads are simply saying that we should be looking at improving the tools we have available.

II wont go through each point, not because I don’t have example of each but simply because this is becoming boring now.  But if we take tactical ventilation.  If used offensively, those that have witnessed it all agree that it is the way forward.  Not only does it make conditions for fire fighters much improved, but it provides an environment that has never been seen before at compartment fires, on any scale.

Because of this fact, and of those that have seen it in operation will tell you, it simply is the biggest thing since sliced bread.  OK so if we look at its history and we see that it not at all that new.  It has been used for a number of years in the US, however there have been problems as not enough was understood of the danger of incorrect use of offensive tactical ventilation and the resulting consequences where a significant amount of FF’s lost their lives.


This can not be said about the UK FRS, as it has been acknowledged that research must be carried out to prevent similar occurring over in the UK.  So, UK FRS have been for the last 6 years at least been trailing PPV.  Firstly with defensive operations, and now some are starting to use it offensively, with fantastic results.

Now if we consider something that Andy said, that training with the equipment we use allows us to have confidence in the equipment we use, quite right Andy, this is fact, and from such a virginal FF this is quite profound.  We have all sent how equipemtn works in training and this provides FF’s with the confidence in its abilities to the job.

On the other side of the coin.  Guide Lines have in themselves been their own worst enemy. They do not breed confidence and they simply do not make a FF feel safe in the environment they are entering, which is unique for the kit that is carried on wagons in this day and age.

The simple fact is that we should rely on our instincts and equipment that has demonstrated to protect in dangerous situations.  FF;s should not rely on a length of string to do this.

I ask the question Billy.  If you were not trying to market this product would you not agree.  Surely you can see the issues here.  You may of given statistics that say that FF’s would prefer this than the  current GL, but this is not true in context.  I bet if they read this forum they would be of a different opinion.

Paul