Open plan / Inner room flats

[wee brian]

Worth a look

http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/planningandbuilding/determination451233

[nearlythere]

Worth a look

http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/planningandbuilding/determination451233

So common sense and engineered solutions are out the window then.

Right you Risk Assessors. Get your codes out of the attic again and start reading up.

[ian gough]

Ahh but you cannot beat the reliability of doors. Just tell folks to keep them shut and all will be well.

[nearlythere]

Worth a look

http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/planningandbuilding/determination451233

So common sense and engineered solutions are out the window then.

Right you Risk Assessors. Get your codes out of the attic again and start reading up.

Did the consultants for the client not use the determination of one of UK's greatest political orators and  statesmen - John Prescott - who said during the recent firefighter's industrial unrest, "Fires don't happen at night"?

[kurnal]

Its easy to get frustrated reading determinations in this way but we must never forget that the huge majority of applications would be approved without getting to this stage.

Instead the consultant is criticised for the lack of detail in his submission-

" Your consultants have argued that the provision of sprinklers would provide a more reliable safety measure than the traditional approach of relying on doors to be closed either manually or via closers. However, no attempt has been made by your consultants to quantify the relative merits of the two approaches in terms of reliability. "

Ah. so easy to say so hard to deliver. And this from the head of the department that produced the guidance document with the infamous pictures of cows in inner rooms with vision panels.

But there is benefit from the determination. There is a new concept in the fire safety design of buildings-

"They believe that in some of the cases on the proposed plans, this can be simply resolved by the introduction of full height fire rated deflection walls between the route and the cooking area."

Now that may prove to be the panacea.

[kurnal]

I suppose on further reflection the determination is clarifying something that is only implicit in the ADB- that the provision of sprinklers may bring some advantage in some circumstances, but in an inner room or open plan arrangement with no alternative it will never be permissible to assume that the sprinklers will suppress and contain a fire sufficiently to permit persons to escape via the area protected by sprinklers, and a "protected route" is a much better option (even that protection is full of holes in the walls due to open doors).

The BRE study into the effectiveness of sprinklers indicated itf I recall a 70% chance of surviving a fire in a room if sprinklers are provided but identified some vulnerability to shielded fires. What would you think are the chances of people shutting doors at night? Greater or less than 70%?

[val]

What would you think are the chances of people shutting doors at night? Greater or less than 70%?
Kurnal, CLG need to find another £50000 to do a survey on that question.

WeeBrian...well done old chap, if only for the pleasure of seeing the sneer on fire engineers faces fade for a moment or two!

[kurnal]

WeeBrian...well done old chap, if only for the pleasure of seeing the sneer on fire engineers faces fade for a moment or two!

I echo the thanks to Wee B for bringing this to our attention. As for the other bit Val it infers a little of an US and THEM attitude which I hope isnt the case. We can all sometimes get a little excited and some of us allegedly lose a little self control of our bodily functions  when reading and comparing guidance but I would hope we all have tongues firmly planted in cheek most of the time. Whose cheek and which one - well thats for another place.
Tell you what though- I do feel sorry for those who  always have to be guarded over expressing their opinions on the forums for fear of offending their employers position. Thats one aspect of being a freebird that I do value.

[nearlythere]

WeeBrian...well done old chap, if only for the pleasure of seeing the sneer on fire engineers faces fade for a moment or two!

?

[kurnal]

What would you think are the chances of people shutting doors at night? Greater or less than 70%?
Kurnal, CLG need to find another £50000 to do a survey on that question.

Just another thought- theres data collected on the FDR1 that could be put to use here?

[nearlythere]

WeeBrian...well done old chap, if only for the pleasure of seeing the sneer on fire engineers faces fade for a moment or two!

I echo the thanks to Wee B for bringing this to our attention. As for the other bit Val it infers a little of an US and THEM attitude which I hope isnt the case. We can all sometimes get a little excited and some of us allegedly lose a little self control of our bodily functions  when reading and comparing guidance but I would hope we all have tongues firmly planted in cheek most of the time. Whose cheek and which one - well thats for another place.
Tell you what though- I do feel sorry for those who  always have to be guarded over expressing their opinions on the forums for fear of offending their employers position. Thats one aspect of being a freebird that I do value.

Touché

[val]

Kurnal,

Moi, a prescriptionist! How very dare you.

I do however get a bit frustrated by the cult of the fire engineer...not every proposal or design needs a 'modeling exercise' or a PC running for four days to 'prove' that tenability levels remain within acceptable limits for sufficient time to allow an averagely mobile quarterback to escape on 78% of occasions, sometimes just stick to the tried and tested methodology.

Many fire engineers that I come across are technically brilliant but lacking in commonsense and experience at applying their theory.

[kurnal]

Val I couldn't agree more.

There are some very big players in the fire engineering field some of whom built their reputation and business by the application of modelling techniques and sure inthe knowledge that they would always be several steps ahead of most of the enforcing agencies reviewing and approving their proposals, and therefore would be able to push the boundaries whilst the agencies would not have the expertise or confidence to question them.

Every brigade-  or at least every region - should have a fire engineering audit  team with skills, experise and equipment to match the best in private industry and should take a close look at some of these ground breaking and large projects that are justified by fire engineering. Because as you say sometimes common sense and the practical experience of seeing fires and witnessing human behaviour are lacking. The commssioning architect has a vision and the engineer sets out on behalf of the architect to prove the vision can be made to work. The audit team would apply a control that I think is currently lacking ( except in some centres of excellence- I am aware of the work of the London engineering team).

And it might just bring back an opportunity for some decent career progression back into fire safety work- theres going to be such a problem in a few years time when some of the current second generation former uniformed FSOs finally retire.

In many brigades bull**** can still baffle brains.

[nearlythere]

Val I couldn't agree more.

There are some very big players in the fire engineering field some of whom built their reputation and business by the application of modelling techniques and sure inthe knowledge that they would always be several steps ahead of most of the enforcing agencies reviewing and approving their proposals, and therefore would be able to push the boundaries whilst the agencies would not have the expertise or confidence to question them.

Every brigade-  or at least every region - should have a fire engineering audit  team with skills, experise and equipment to match the best in private industry and should take a close look at some of these ground breaking and large projects that are justified by fire engineering. Because as you say sometimes common sense and the practical experience of seeing fires and witnessing human behaviour are lacking. The commssioning architect has a vision and the engineer sets out on behalf of the architect to prove the vision can be made to work. The audit team would apply a control that I think is currently lacking ( except in some centres of excellence- I am aware of the work of the London engineering team).

And it might just bring back an opportunity for some decent career progression back into fire safety work- theres going to be such a problem in a few years time when some of the current second generation former uniformed FSOs finally retire.

In many brigades bull**** can still baffle brains.

Quite so. In a few years time the role of F&R Safety will be the co-ordinating of certificates from engineers and consultants and ensuring that the "tick box" compliance proforma is completed.

[messy]

.

Every brigade-  or at least every region - should have a fire engineering audit  team with skills, experise and equipment to match the best in private industry and should take a close look at some of these ground breaking and large projects that are justified by fire engineering. .

I must admit, I had never really considered how the smaller brigades cope with the demands of IT led fire safety engineering proposals with all it's computer wizardry and engineering speak.

We are spoilt in London having a dedicated team at our disposal and I have been surprised at the relatively high amount of ocassions when proposals have been 'knocked back' as insufficient info has been supllied, or the sums just don't add up to support the strategy.

Although regionalisation is a dirty word in the fire service at present, maybe it makes sense to pool resources into such centres