Access to loft hatches in general needs flats

[William 29]

I’m just looking for some opinions on this as how to best cover the issue in the fire risk assessment and advise the client.  We are involved with FRAs for a large housing association comprising mainly of general needs purpose built flats with some sheltered accommodation and assisted living “domestic” type properties.

In the majority of the FRAs under the section “Limitations of the assessment” we have identified that where there are loft hatches or roof void hatches we have stated that no access was gained.  Many of them are padlocked and also the consultants would need ladders to access with all the associated health and safety implications etc.  The housing association has had a recent external audit and they have picked up on the FRAs stating no access was gained to the lofts and have stated that ALL need to be accessed.  We are talking over 200 addresses some with multiple blocks.

As a result of this in future FRAs I have said that the consultants will, where no access is gained state in their opinion what impact (if any) this would have on the property in terms of life safety or property protection.  The external auditor still seems to be insisting on inspecting all the loft hatches, which in reality may cost more than the FRAs themselves.

Has anyone come across this?

[AnthonyB]

Yes, quite a few residential at the head of the common stair have a loft access hatch which leads to either a void, or sometimes a void with a common header tank. Most of the time the hatch is small & there is never a ladder.

Some have a rudimentary padlock, others nothing, but height makes access difficult.

If I can safely get in I will, but it's rarely the case, but rather than ignore it it gets flagged up as an action for a competent person to access, examine & record, what, if any, compartmentation (vertical & horizontal) is present and what ignition risk are there.

Residential fire seems even more cost sensitive than commercial with many stakeholders assuming that "there's only a stair to look at"  it's easy, quick & cheap.

As such we can sometimes only just complete a decent type 1 FRA on the cost structures and that doesn't include the provisions for working at height. Where necessary we will always require specialist inspections or a Type 2/3/4 FRA as appropriate. Until you visit a site it's difficult to guess in advance as there is little information available in advance.

[Owain]

Header tanks probably aren't a fire risk, but many communal lofts will have TV amplifiers - and they can get hot, especially if surrounded by boxes etc, or the mains supply to the amp gets chewed by rodents (or 'borrowed' by a resident in an adjoining flat)

[SamFIRT]

Don't forget........Lighting circuits run in the loft.  (And sometime ring mains, DIY spurs, shower circuit’s, DIY lighting and specialist circuits like alarm systems).

Insulation can be a problem reducing heat dissipation. Junction boxes and chocolate box connectors are a possible problem area. As are recessed lighting units either mains or reduced voltage e.g. GU10 & GU4 etc. along with any associated transformers or switched circuit voltage modifiers.
 
On top of all that people use lofts for many more things than you would think by looking at a closed and possibly locked hatch. Storage, hobbies, guest rooms, hiding areas (for things and people), growing of various ( usually unlawful) plants etc. etc. 

And these days Photovoltaic (PV) panels are being mounted on the roof as well. 

[William 29]

Thanks guys, I am really talking about the hatches that we have observed in the common areas of general needs flats and sheltered schemes, many of which had a padlock so I am assuming would restrict access.

[Golden]

To add to Sam's posting I've also had instances of pirate radio stations being operated from the lofts as well as storage of various illicit contraband!

My opinion is that you are undertaking a risk assessment and it would be up to you to state in the specification for the assessments whether or not the lofts would be inspected and cost the job accordingly. If you were only doing a type 1 inspection then I'd suggest that as long as you didn't consider a significant risk to the occupants from any activity in the loft then it wouldn't be necessary; if you did consider the potential for a risk to occupants then it may have to be done but as others have commented below it would be a specialist operation and added to the report as a significant finding of your type 1. I'm not sure that helps much but its the way I'd tackle the problem otherwise the FRAs are going to become significantly more expensive to carry out and the estimating would be increasingly difficult too; probably resulting in the RP going to someone a lot cheaper and less thorough than yourself!

[Tom Sutton]

a decent type 1 FRA on the cost structures or a Type 2/3/4 FRA as appropriate.

Type 1 FRA and Type 2/3/4 FRA is new to me could you elaborate and where does it come from is it the new PAS 79?

[Golden]

Tom was just using the terminology that Mr. T uses in his new fangled guide to FS in purpose built flats - its quite  useful actually although a bit long winded in my opinion. Interestingly the guide doesn't mention lofts and only mentions roof voids once with respect to some of the large fires I went to in flats in London the 90/00s!!

Type 1 – Common parts only (non-destructive)
Type 2 – Common parts only (destructive)
Type 3 – Common parts and flats (non-destructive)
Type 4 – Common parts and flats (destructive)

[Tom Sutton]

Thanks Golden I have the guide but not studied in any detail must devote an exhilarating night to it. 

[kurnal]

Yes we have similar problems.

I specifically ask for all keys to access all areas but despite this the client often fails to provide them - the trouble is you dont find out some are missing till you are on site sometimes many miles and several hours travel away from  the head office from where you had to collect the "full set" of keys.  I carry a telescopic ladder in the boot of the car that extends to 4.5m or makes a set of stepladders, its heavy but access can be gained to most hatches.

So sometimes there have to be exclusions under the heading "Extent of Fire Risk Assessment"

[William 29]

Yes we have similar problems.

I specifically ask for all keys to access all areas but despite this the client often fails to provide them - the trouble is you dont find out some are missing till you are on site sometimes many miles and several hours travel away from  the head office from where you had to collect the "full set" of keys.  I carry a telescopic ladder in the boot of the car that extends to 4.5m or makes a set of stepladders, its heavy but access can be gained to most hatches.

So sometimes there have to be exclusions under the heading "Extent of Fire Risk Assessment"

Thanks Kurnal,  I'm just not happy sending our sub-contracted consultants in to such areas?  Provision of ladders, asbestos? Gloves for loft insulation protection? Eye protection, working at height etc..... Not sure our PL cover would extend to that???

[wee brian]

Roof voids are often where compartmentation between flats has been breached(or maybe never existed). If you don't lok then you should advise the client to check for themselves.

[kurnal]

Thanks Kurnal,  I'm just not happy sending our sub-contracted consultants in to such areas?  Provision of ladders, asbestos? Gloves for loft insulation protection? Eye protection, working at height etc..... Not sure our PL cover would extend to that???

Asbestos is easily dealt with. No survey report- no disturbance. Get a survey done then review compartmentation.

Working at height- not a problem. Lots of training courses available if you want but a generic working at height SSOW for this scenario will cover it.

Gloves and eye protection are standard kit all risk assessors should carry. Whether they need to be used in each case depends on the circumstances. If its a matter of lifting the hatch and looking without disturbing anything then it should not be a problem. I also carry a flexi remote  drain inspection video camera which comes in useful for difficult places.