Author Topic: The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005  (Read 45421 times)

Gary Howe

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The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005
« on: December 02, 2005, 03:30:28 PM »
When this order comes into force (April 2006) will it have any effect on the way the Fire and Rescue service offer advice in terms of fire safety, the Fire Services Act, 1947 will still apply:

Provision of fire services

1 (1) (f) efficient arrangements for the giving, when requested, of advice in respect of buildings and other property in the area of the fire authority as to fire prevention, restricting the spread of fires, and means of escape in case of fire.  

With reference to fire risk assessments will be a limit on advice, or will this be down to the individual FPO on the ground, has anyone any experience of dealing with FPO's and their view/stance on a completed FRA.

And secondly if they come across a building that has not completed a FRA, I assume they point them in the direction of suitable guidance documentation to help them complete the FRA.

All views appreciated.

Regards


Gary.

Offline wee brian

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The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2005, 04:37:26 PM »
If you are a reasonably big business the advice will be "do a risk assessment".

messy

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The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2005, 05:46:39 PM »
Quote from: Gary Howe
When this order comes into force (April 2006) will it have any effect on the way the Fire and Rescue service offer advice in terms of fire safety, the Fire Services Act, 1947 will still apply:

Provision of fire services

1 (1) (f) efficient arrangements for the giving, when requested, of advice in respect of buildings and other property in the area of the fire authority as to fire prevention, restricting the spread of fires, and means of escape in case of fire.  

With reference to fire risk assessments will be a limit on advice, or will this be down to the individual FPO on the ground, has anyone any experience of dealing with FPO's and their view/stance on a completed FRA.

And secondly if they come across a building that has not completed a FRA, I assume they point them in the direction of suitable guidance documentation to help them complete the FRA.

All views appreciated.

Regards


Gary.
1st question: Ask Colin!!!!
2nd            
: It is not London Policy to issue enforcement or prosecution for failing to have a FRA. However, it is possible (but perhaps not likely) that prosecution could occur if advice is later ignored although follow up visits soley to check on FRA will not happen.

Offline steve walker

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The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2005, 08:53:08 PM »
The Fire Services Act, 1947 no longer applies. The full section on fire safety in the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 reads (my upper case):

6     Fire safety
 
      (1) A fire and rescue authority (FRA) must make provision for the purpose of promoting fire safety in its area.
 
      (2) In making provision under subsection (1) a fire and rescue authority must in particular, TO THE EXTENT THAT IT CONSIDERS IT REASONABLE TO DO SO, make arrangements for-
 
  (a) the provision of information, publicity and encouragement in respect of the steps to be taken to prevent fires and death or injury by fire;
  (b) the giving of advice, on request, about-  
  (i) how to prevent fires and restrict their spread in buildings and other property;
  (ii) the means of escape from buildings and other property in case of fire.

The phrase in upper case does seem to give FRAs a lot of latitude. I think that you are right Gary, the FRA will give general rather than specific guidance.

I agree with Messy that the LFB will not issue an enforcement notice if the only failure to comply with the FSO is the failure to do a fire risk assessment. If there are other more serious failings then an enforcement notice or prosecution are options. The failure to carry out a FRA would be part of the notice.

It is interesting to note that for FSO enforcement notices there is only a requirement for the authority to detail the failure to comply, not how to comply.

I wonder how far authorities will go selling advice. The LFB sell various courses - http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/fire_safety/at_work/fst_intro.asp - Will this be expanded to include training on how to do fire risk assessment?

Perhaps commercial premises will be able to pay the fire authority to do their fire risk assessment. Fire authorities have plenty of spare orange folders to put the significant findings in.
The views expressed in this forum are personal and not necessarily those of my employer.

Offline val

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The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2005, 09:45:43 PM »
Risk assessment
9.—(1) The responsible person must make a suitable and sufficient assessment of the risks to
which relevant persons are exposed for the purpose of identifying the general fire precautions he
needs to take to comply with the requirements and prohibitions imposed on him by or under this
Order.

Article 9 from the fire Safety Order, reproduced above by kind permission of Her Majesty, seems pretty clear that not having made a suitable and sufficient assessment, is illegal.
Whether that actually means some form of tangible written or electronic (subject to five or more etc.), is still open to debate.

On the second bit about charging...I think London are playing a bit of a dodgy game. In my view FRS should never carry out FRA, for money or otherwise. Why not go back to certification? There is also the concept of unfair trade, if FRS charges commercial rates then they are making excess profits because they are already levying a precept. If they undercut commercial rates they are dissing Colin and his colleagues. The whole issue of commercial trading by local autthorities is complex and liable to create conflicts of interests. London's engineering team should resign, set up a trading company and rent the space back from the LFEPA. (If I have got that all wrong, I apologise in advance...third glass of port)!

messy

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The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2005, 02:16:41 AM »
Whether the commercial unit has plans to set up a FRA course, I don't know, but as long as they stick to agreed standards I cannot see it being an issue. But London do not carry out actual Fire Risk Assessments commercially. (except on their own property which is iffy enough- How can an authority police and/or prosecute itself if its gets something wrong!!?)

With regards enforcement notices. Whilst, when issuing an enforcement notice the authority is not obliged to provide a method of how to comply, LFB policy is that they will give as many options to the occupier as possible, which if completed, would satisfy the authority.

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2005, 03:04:44 AM »
The failure to carry out the FRA is a breach but not necessarily an offence. Many FRSs take the view that they will not give advice about the FRA, but will just refer the person, as Brian implies, to suitable guidance or competent persons. Their reasoning is that they cannot get too involved in the FRA and then go and police it. (ps too much port gives you gout).
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline val

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« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2005, 08:57:55 AM »
Offences
32.—(1) It is an offence for any responsible person or any other person mentioned in article 5(3)
to—
(a) fail to comply with any requirement or prohibition imposed by articles 8 to 22 and 38
(fire safety duties) where that failure places one or more relevant persons at risk of death
or serious injury in case of fire;

Article 9 is included in the list of offences.

Whilst I agree that 'it is not necessarily an offence', if there is no risk of death etc.... if it is demonstrable to a court that failure to carry a FRA out lead to 'risk of death or serious injury' then surely that is an offence and the culprit is liable to a fine. I'm not sure I understand the difference between a breach and an offence if both could lead to a conviction.

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2005, 12:56:26 PM »
Both cannot. You have made the point yourself. If it is not clear, it must be the port. Ask your civil service chums about the concept that they called ''decriminalization of minor breaches''.  (They probably spellt it with an s, rather than a z though, because, as you know, the standard of English education amongst civil servants is not what it used to be.) It was a concept introduced into the WFPL, and is carried over into the RRO. Failure to carry out an FRA is a clear and indisputable breach of the Regs. Is it an offence? Only if by failing to carry out the fra there is, as you correctly say, AS A RESULT, one or more persons at risk of serious injury or death in the event of fire. In most cases where an FRA has not been carried out, there is no such risk, ergo no offence for which the punter can be prosecuted. It is still, however, a breach, and would enter into the criminal arena if it were subject to an enforcement notice with which the punter then failed to comply. All this becomes much clearer if you stick to 15 year old malt, rather than port!
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline val

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The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2005, 08:49:58 PM »
"Even the venerable Times newspaper was long a hold-out for "ize" but apparently switched to "ise" overnight in the mid-1980s."
I believe that even the Oxford Dictionary allows a choice. I am amazed that you are not for choice Mr Todd.

Additionally, would you direct me to this 'decriminalisation of minor breaches'. I can find lots on Googlization about maraijuana and a bit of waffle from the Scottish Parliament but nothing that indicates that the British Government is advocating decriminalising legislation that they have just written, (or is that wrote)?
As for the malt... civil service pay old chap!

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2005, 10:16:41 PM »
Valery, First the rules on -ize. The original rule of the OED was that there was no choice if the word had a Greek route. It had, in such cases to be -ize. Alas, no one learns Greek any more, so no one knew how to apply the rule, and, as English language is a living organism, they changed their thinking so that the situation is now this. Where there is a choice, you can, as you say, use either, BUT the OED preferred spelling is the -ize version. You will find all the many thousands of British Standards that your civil service chums quote endlessly (often with little care -and sometimes understanding-of what the documents say in the first place) are all written solely with -ize endings, because BS 0 (a standard for standards) says you must use the OED style.

The decriminalization of minor breaches was a concept that your chums bandied about, in the heady days of Vicki Harris and Gerry Reid, in respect of the WFPL. The theory made perfect sense, and it was this. If you breach ANY condition specified in a fire certificate, you are committing an offence, for which you could be subject to prosecution, namely that of breaching a condition specified in a fire certifcate. This can be an entirely trivial breach, such as failing to keep a log book. But then you really have no excuse, as your friendly neighbourhood I/O has spent lots of his valuable time telling you exactly what to do  via the medium of the fire certificate. Now along comes FRA and the WFPL, and suddenly the poor punter is cast adrift from his friendly I/O (like good ole Messey), who will no longer be holding his hand and sorting out his fire precautions for him. It was acknowledged that the poor punter will not get it as right as Messey (though he might do as well as CERTAIN of Messey's chums). so the idea was, if he gets it wrong, lets not give power to prosecute them for an offence UNLESS he is so damn stupid that he puts people at serious risk. What you now have in the RRO is just that principle carried over into the RRO, with less scope for defence if you put an employee (as opposed to a non-employee) at serious risk. As I recall, the 1993 Home Office report on the FP Act first introduced the concept, but I do not recall that it used the funny term decriminalization, but it said the same thing, and that was the term that people used for a while during the drafting of the WFPL.

On a personal note, try not to understand all this too well, as civil service policy is to move people to other Departments as soon as they know anything about the subject with which they are dealing, and we would all kind of miss you if that happened. You might end up fixing the gypsies, like Wee Marky Coram. ( Have any of them put a shotgun up his sit-upon yet, do you happen to know?)
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Mr. P

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« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2005, 09:20:44 AM »
I must say, regardles of certain others recent interjections, that I am finding some of these threads "A most excellent journey".  Great tuition, leading questions/statements, an illuminating read!  Keep me going through the rigours of yuletide.

Thank-you! I was becoming demoralized.

Offline dave bev

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The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2005, 05:18:09 PM »
mr p - guffaw, guffaw!

dave bev

Offline Big A

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« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2005, 09:28:28 AM »
Thanks for the explanation of 'breach of regs' and 'offence'. I remember being taught that we couldn't take enforcement action due to a lack of FRA as part of this FRS's WPR training (and then spent several years trying to convince many of my colleagues who obviously hadn't) but was never quite sure of the legal reason.

Offline steve walker

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« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2006, 02:53:32 PM »
Quote from: val
Risk assessment
....
On the second bit about charging...I think London are playing a bit of a dodgy game. In my view FRS should never carry out FRA, for money or otherwise. Why not go back to certification? There is also the concept of unfair trade, if FRS charges commercial rates then they are making excess profits because they are already levying a precept. If they undercut commercial rates they are dissing Colin and his colleagues. The whole issue of commercial trading by local autthorities is complex and liable to create conflicts of interests. London's engineering team should resign, set up a trading company and rent the space back from the LFEPA. (If I have got that all wrong, I apologise in advance...third glass of port)!
Essex Fire & Rescue trading as EFA (Trading) can now carry out risk assessments in a consultant capacity. They also sell an online FRA for £199. http://www.ictu.co.uk/

I think that this is an interesting interpretation of the duty to give information in Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004. Is it reasonable? Is anyone going to take them to court to find out?

If I was trying to run a business doing FRAs I don’t think I would be too happy about it. But the fact that Essex is charging a commercial rate is probably better than them providing the advice for nothing.

What does the Forum think about this?
The views expressed in this forum are personal and not necessarily those of my employer.