FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => General Interest => Topic started by: Guest on January 04, 2004, 08:37:31 PM
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Where do the specialist ADO's fit within the new role structure?
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Less seriously, it seems that by other postings around here, it would depend on if you have been 'fast tracked' or not. Therefore, would there be a difference in pay scale of any rank between the FT and standard slog guy? Have to watch out lest 'they start deducting for not having had the chance to get Q'd up on the Q's they will pay more for. Having just entered the 20 year club, would Q's that I did, which are now obsolete, be disadvantageous? Others stuff I'm Q'd for which is still relevant, but am not in a users position for, how will that hit me? By becoming specialist in a grade could in itself become limiting to someone, and then others leap past up the pay scale chain. Well, it's Thursday so...
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joe, simple answer - it hasnt been resolved yet, though i can assure you that when the work starts specialist roles will not be forgotten! the original work that was done on this issue placed specialist roles at a higher 'role score' than purely operational personnel (if there is such a thing of course)
even when the scores were 'weighted' it still produced a higher 'role score' than the ops staff.
suggest you speak to your rep body (whichever your rep body is) my rep body has already started collating concerns/discrepancies (i know cos im doing it!!) anybody wish to make comments, air their concerns then please do so on this posting (if joe doesnt mind) and i'll call in regularly to look at them
dave bev
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ok, either no-one cares or no-one visits, im not sure which one to believe, or perhaps both!!!
dave bev
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I visit, dave, but I don't care.
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but colin, if there are no specialist fire safety ado's how are you ever going to wind everyone up with your references to the quality of their expertise?
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Dunno. Don't care.
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thank you colin very useful statement
why make silly statements like that
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Slly yes. But at least hios punctuation was spot on.
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Silly yes.
But at least his punctuation was spot on.
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Can I remind everyone this site is meant to be for the benefit of helping other people.
Lets cut down the silly remarks please
Yes great to have a " laugh" but some of it is getting out of hand now.
And may I ask Mr Todd what his problem is with ADo's and for that matter Local Fire Authorty inspecting officers?
I am not a LAFO myself but strongly disagree with some of his outlandish comments and certainly wont be using his consultancy!
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Yes, you may ask. I didn't know I had a problem, provided they are suitably trained. If you HAD used my consultancy, you would probably have been served by one of the ADOs who were, but, hey, my little girl's school fees are paid for this term so I hope to be alright for another few weeks.
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Well with a budget of £750,000 to spend on fire safety I now know who not to use for a fire safety consultancy
Grow up Colin please!
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No problem. You will find a list of alternative consultants on the IFE website or in the Yellow Book.
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What's happening here?
Surely if Colin has a view and it's not too offensive, he is entitled to share it here without the 'scratch your eyes out' bitchyness which has happened on this thread. At least he is willing to be identified.
It hurts me more than I can say to back him up, but between his vicious angry attacks on innocent LA FS officers, he does contribute greatly to this board.
I have worked alongside some excellent, motivated and highly competent FS officers (yes Colin even in London) and I have worked with some complete idiots who probably couldn't open a fire door let alone recognise one.
So it's not surprising that when a consultant such as Colin has repeated experience of clashing with the jobsworth no-nothing type, he's gunna be reluctant in employing them.
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Thank you Mr Guest; the 2nd Mr Guest that is. I am sorry it hurt you so much to agree but it was nice of you anyway. A scroll up, will show that I was originally merely replying to poor old Davey from the FBU, who seemed to feel lonely and unwanted, which is why I replied to him. A little application of intellect might also have concluded that by making a simple frivolous comment, it brought Davey's thread, on which he was seeking comment, to the fore again at the top of the stack. And ole Davey knows that I actually have much less problem with a lot of the ADOs, which is why generally we employ them, rather than station officers. He was only being frivolous in his accusation that I enjoy winding them up, and I replied to him in the same vein.
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It’s a bit of a shame that a valid question has been side tracked in rather a rude and inappropriate way. Whilst the issue raised is of no interest to you Colin, it is too many of us.
Back to the point. Joe/Dave. My colleagues would be very keen to share info on this matter.
We are trying to get some handle on the expectations but those involved seem to be keeping it very close to their chests.
I have seen a presentation from a LFB Officer which indicated enhanced payments for those having fire safety qualifications.
Not sure if it has been taken on board or if it is just a pipe dream.
From the point of competence, clearly a financial reward is going to encourage those in the Fire safety departments to take greater interest........... Even us ADO's Colin!
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Clearly the basic pay structure is that Managers of firefighters will be paid more. Specialist staff will have to argue with their fire Authorities and make the case for any pay parity. Come on lads wake up! And the FBU agreed to this!!
Furthermore, in my brigade the Chief's latest brainwave (but I note many other brigades have already done it) is to decentralise to 'Districts' with District Managers. So far, only one has fire safety experience of any worth.
Be assured Colin, the days of 'private' fire safety officers (didn't they do that to Building Control sometime ago) is nigh.
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Ref above - sorry about 'sexist' comments - I know I must get more training and always remember to include the 'lassies'. This is a sackable offence now in the fire service so please keep my it to yourselves.
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Priavatised fire safety officers? Possible but hardly nigh I would say and not necessarily a good thing anyway as AIs are often too close to clients to be objective- a point I have made in my response to the consultation on revision of building control legislation in Northern Ireland. However, civilian fire safety officers in brigades are much more likely to increase in the future, and could be a good thing.
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Whilst using civilians for fire safety sounds like a good idea I wonder where they are going to come from. Its clear from other threads (Colins for instance) that people with the right skills are few and far between.
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The issue might not be whether 'private' or 'public' is best it will be about the public perception of a potential erosion of services in return for cost savings. Privatisation of the sector would open the industry to a host of bandits intent on short term gain until they might be found out by some token effort at regulation. I am not saying that public is best under all circumstances but at least we will have systems in place to prove competency. What system will the privateers abide by in order to maintain public and political confidence in a private sector with regulatory responsibility.
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Brian, It is not so much going to come from but do come from. they exist already. Many are ex local authority fire officers.
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Using ex LA FS Officers as non-uniform FS staff is obviously extremely cost effective.
A Fire Authority has already invested in the training of this individual and can re-employ them for a smaller salary/cheaper conditions. The Ex FS Officer can supplement his pension and actualy be better off than when he was uniformed. A win-win situation, or is it???
This situation will only work in the short term. If Brigades are not training uniformed staff to replace those non uniform staff when they reach statutory retirement age, where are the next generation of FS staff going to come from?
Messyshaw
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Yes i accept that.
But what im saying is Colin Todd comes across as an arrogant idiot himself at times!
Like I said i wouldnt employ him based on some of the childish comments on hee
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Well are private fire officers a bad thing?
We have proivate Health and Safety officers in industry.
Employers just have to make sure they get someone with a recognised IFE or similar qualification, thus prooving their competence!
Simple
Next Question please!
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Just having a qualification doesn't determine your competence.
The point i am making is that in IPDS the public sector LAFB bod has a system at their disposal which continuously audits performance against accredited criteria. Thus proving the competence of both the individual and the organisation to the regulatory body (in LAFB cases the audit comission appointed by the ODPM).
What system will the privateers have for achieving the same outcome, who will be their regulator and before they jump in with two feet have they even considered the impact this might have on their profit margin.
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Arrogant & Childish comments? Now what does that remind me of? Oh yes, this forum during the strike. Some of you LAFB 'Professionals are not so perfect yourselves!
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Meeoow. Nails at 40 paces. Puss in boots is actually animal cruelty. Fancy kicking cats! Oh no it's not. ( is it still panto time?)
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I like cats. I have a pedigree Burmese. His name is Casper and his birthday is later this month. If anyone wants to send him a card, MY name and full address is available to all via this site, unlike those who prefer to make jibes under the name Mous or Guest.
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What are you afraid of? That ex Local Authority Fire Safety officers will find out that their knowledge and experience is just as viable as any other!!
I my self have just moved from a local authority to the fire service, as a safety officer, and much cheaper than the existing lot!! with just as much knowledge, you really do not know you are born! Welcome to the 21st century market place !!!
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well, things have certainly been developing while ive been busy doing other things!!
ok, the comments from colin were i believe meant for me, and not as an attack on others, if i were offended by colin i would tell him and im sure he would respond appropriately, the other comments re those employed by a fire authority or a private enterprise or consultancy really need putting into some sort of context, people are people and most people (of an age between 17 and 60) are generally employees, so i have respect for all of them. i also have respect for employers that treat their employees and others decently, so i'd be happy to see a bit more of that on here??
back to the real issue, there is work developing as i type, a sub group is working on role allocation and job sizing which may start to put some flesh on the bones of the june and october agreements. specialist posts will be considered and we are trying to establish how 'weighting' should be applied, it isnt all about the numbers of people that a manager manages. we have some views on this issue and they are shared by those within the group, if anyone has any contributions to that debate then by all means post on here - which was why this thread was 'started', there have been comments about this process being kept 'shrouded in secrecy', the answer to that is quite simple, we have all experienced people rushing off in all directions and acting on snippets and their own interpretations, we are trying to avoid all this, so i certainly dont apologise.
so as i said, please add your comments on the issue of role allocation and weighting of specialist posts (activities to be more accurate)
thanks
dave bev
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Welcome back Davey? Not that its any of my business, but where have you been?
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Quote: "where have you been".... rumour has it.... to rhyme of pussy cat pussy cat
Dave Bev, Dave Bev,
Where have you been?
Been up to London to visit the Queen
Dave Bev, Dave Bev,
What did you, there?
Collected a Knight hood from under her chair.
No, riddling aside, I think you deserve one for what you get involved with.
Come on guys credit due.
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Sir Davey? It has a certain ring to it, but he couldn't be a commie any more. Although come to think of it, it was ok for old Wedgie Benn, so maybe it would be alright.
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shucks guys, and i was starting to think you didnt care!!
not been anywhere other than working hard trying to make sense of and getting a handle on all things ipds - be interested in your thoughts (colin and anyone else who may have something to add) re the workshop next week at the fsc on fire safety role maps, i was supposed to be attending but now have to be at westminster (no im not being imprisoned in the tower or elevated to a high status commie colin) for another issue close to everyones heart !!!!
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Well I for one missed you davey. Unlike marx ( your ole pal karl not groucho you understand) you have a sense of humour. I expect you are going to westminster to help tony organise an iraq branch of the fbu. Gives a new meaning to the phrase 3 strikes and you are dead. As for iddly piddly diddly squat, ask me who has had his fire risk assessment course role mapped (after a bit of extra coverage on property ra and the role of the insurer. Cool eh?
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col, youre gonna have to bear with me on this one, fire risk assesment role mapped, sorry non comprendo. i assume you are saying that your course fits against the role map, if so which role map does it fit, or am i missing something. who did the role mapping and against which nos, or is it an nvq against which its been measured.
sorry if i sound confused, its probably because i am!!
feel free to private me oncs@fbu-ho.org.uk (dont be too concerned about emailing an organisation which the govt could trace back to you cos i'll be telling them all about your covert operations to help establish trade union links across the world on tuesday !!! LOL)
hasta la victoria beckham
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Davey, Sending this in haste in a 4 hour window at home between a course for the enforcing authorities in Northern Ireland and a course organised by West Yorks, so must be brief. We do an IFE Approved course on fire risk assesment, which we developed for the Northern Ireland Fire Safety Panel, originally for building control and the fire service in NI. It has taken off to an unprecedented degree, and the NI Fire Safety Panel are now providing it to numerous mainland brigades. (With current bookings alone, we will have provided training for representatives of over a dozen brigades by the end of the year. A number of brigades wanted it mapped against the role maps-principally the one for assessment of fire risk. As it includes a bit on property protection and the role of the insurer, we have extended the material to address this, so it fits more accurately with the fire service's requirement. If you are seriously interested, I will email you further info, so as not to take up space on the BB.
Keep the red flag flying high, etc. How does Victoria whatsername fit in? I don't think she is a left wing revolutionary, as I doubt she has the intellect.
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ok, a bit clearer now. not sure though how they can be matched against any of the role maps until the role maps themselves have been agreed. this is likely to happen at the njc on the 5th along with a host of other stuff with reference to ipds and rank to role job size advice etc.
you may want to check out the work done last week at the fsc re role maps for fire safety officers, although again these will need to be agreed unless they are examples of ways in which the role maps can be met, similar i assume (often wrongly though) that your course offers??
id be pleased to look at your course if you dont mind, mainly for background info etc for myself as opposed to an official view on whether it does meet the role map. i also assume that your course to some extent satisfies the nvq/snvq requirements should an individual wish to go down that route?
dave bev
the victoria stuff is a bit of a skit on the hasta la victoria sempra - which as a dedicated left wing consultant, im sure you are well aware !! LOL
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Davey, Probably the best thing to do if you are really interested is give me a ring some time and I will talk you through the background to this fire risk assessment course and what it is intended to achieve. Its a long story that will not interest a lot of readers, but it was first developed for building control and the fire service in Northern Ireland, when they first got the Workplace Regs in 2001, and it received IFE approval. Since then, we have run it 14 times in total, including for a number of fire brigades in Great Britain. Next week we are running it for Dorset.
Colin
ps I still dont get the Victoria bit, but it doesn't matter, she is not my type anyway. My love is already devoted to Joanna Lumley. Up the revolution and your leader's friend Che Gewhatisname.
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col, cheers. im busy the next few weeks. at njc and notts for a cfs presentation this week, then off to dear old bridlington for the fireworks, oops, fbu conference! followed by some more work on the role maps and rank 2 role with a few lucky brigades as guinea pigs to test the process, so at best its gonna be at leat 3 weeks before i can honestly spend some time to give your course any consideration at all - and to try to rush in probably wont do it justice. i am pleased that someone is trying to offer quality training - whoever it is. ive been tasked with putting together a presentation for the tuc hazards conference for tuc h&s reps with regards to workplace regs, and to be honest it isnt my 'speciality' - still at least ive got the veritable mr evans to help!!
thanks anyway
best wishes, i'll pass on your kind thoughts!
dave bev
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Yo Davey, If its any help to you, I have a number of Powerpoint presentations that cover the Workplace Regs. I can let you have one or other of these by email if it would save you having to re-invent the wheel. (All I ask in return is that, come the revolution, when Sturmbahnfuhrer Gilchrist is the President of the UK, you put in a good word to make sure a filthy capitalist like me does not have to share a cell with old John P and that if I am deported to a commie gulag its Cuba rather than North Korea.)
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Oops sorry davey, the last message was from me. The computer gits installed a new server over the weekend and messed up all my settings etc.
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colin, apparently the world is not for turning (sorry maggie, especially in your anniversary week!!) of course id put in a good word but of course the workers must have their revenge on those who keep them downtrodden. i can however arrange safe passage across the manchester ship canal to che' shire, the new county for cuban exile seekers, for a fee that probably amounts to a couple of powerpoint presentations so i can 'snaffle' the relevant bits and get all the glory for myself of course (because to acknowledge the help of a filthy capitalist would be suicidal come the revolution) - all contributions to the making life easier for dave beverley campaign gratefully accepted!
ps there may be some questions asked re the rro very soon somewhere!!
oncs@fbu-ho.org.uk
dave bev
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Davey,
If you email me or phone the office and tell me or my pa what you are covering, how long you have to talk if there is any specific angle, or maybe the title of your talk, I can either lift an existing presentation or stiick on or two slides on a cd for you. I must resist the idea of going to Cheshire though as (according to some dozy DO in the fire service there) if, in hotels, you do not have plans on the back of bedroom doors even in straighforward corridors with escape at each end, he will have to explain to the coroner's court why all these people died. ( Personally, I think when the arguement gets to that level, it has already been lost and it is an admission that there is no valid arguement but merely a whim of a dogmatic dinosaur. So Cuba would be preferable to Cheshire.
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thanks col. for your info it will be aimed at h&s reps to assist their employers in complying with their legal responsibility. i was hoping to make it user friendly as they will have limited experience in fire safety but are experienced h&s reps. i dont propose it to be a 'them and us' issue but more of a help to the both the employers and employees and good sensible practical ways to meet the requirements. as they are experienced h&s reps they will already be well versed in how to challenge etc but id rather the presentation be more of a way of demonstrating general and practical fire safety 'solutions' to the benefit of employers and employees working together to achieve a common objective.
see you in utopia!
dave bev
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ok, sorry everyone for appearing to hijack thje real issue for this thread, but here is some relevant info
the rank to role issues were discussed at last weeks njc meeting and broad agreement reached, including the holding of a 'desktop' exercise to test the principles developed with five brigades being asked to assist w/c 17 may.
there will be further information released very soon, probably on the fbu web site when i can get it approved from head office
dave bev
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Davey, I have just dictated a note to one of the girls, setting out slides to stick on a cd for you. Where do you want it sent? You can email me with address if you want, to save space on the BB.
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col, sorry but having trouble logging on, i will send my address if you email me at oncs@fbu-ho.org.uk
thanks
dave bev
ps home addy not given for obvious reasons
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Cos, MI5 might be able to find you when they round up subversives?
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The story so far...........An unlikely tale of an FBU official (whose pals are fighting to keep their jobs) who falls in love with a wee private Fire Safety Consultant........will it all end in tears?
Stayed tuned for the next exciting episode
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I (sniff sniff) really find it quite touching myslelf. Love the fact that Fire Safety Consultant was in caps though. Davey, Have had a system admin email saying that my email to you has been delayed, but not to re-send it again. Dont quite understand that. Has it been intecepted by MI 5? If you need this in a hurry, I suggest you ring the office and give someone the address.
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if only i knew the right words to the song, or could even sing it!
not sure about the fighting to keep their jobs bit, though i surmise it might be a veiled attempt to raise issues of which we are very much aware.
the love triangle, assuming you wish to join and you read the thread is intended to assist other trade unionists in their workplace and at the same time delivering a fire safe community. preface to the fbu rule book may help to see where this is all leading, tears for fears?
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ok, long awaited info as it now looks as though the light at the end of the tunnel isnt actually an express train coming straight at me!!
we had previously agreed with the employers that a trial of the much awaited rank to role process will take place prior to its introduction. there are five brigades involved - one from each of the best value groups. they will be matching their staff to the role maps using the management role map and elements to test the process. they will also be using a set of questions which the results will determine whether a person should be paid at the a or b rate within the role. i asume this will take place pretty soon after an agreement is reached (mondays njc we all hope) as it has all been agreed previously but couldnt be agreed till everything is agreed (ive heard that more times than manchester city getting beaten last season - and that was a lot - sorry mike f!!)
for those able to do so i suggest asking your fbu rep for more info, ive currently been undertaking a few visits explaining the process to officer sections, and i know the 'basic' info should be available via your ec members.
hopefully the officer national comittee website will soon go live and updates will be given on there.
ps, dont shoot me if it all goes pear shaped!
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after today and following on from my last message i am officially in hiding from any of you with guns out there, although you really should be chasing the 'bogus fire authority' labour councillors who flooded the njc meeting. some of them have never sat on a fire authority and didnt even know each other. it was an absolute shambles and and a slur on those honest members of the njc, irrespective of whichever way they voted at least they do have an understanding of the 'fire community'
ok, rant over (for now!)
dave bev
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ok - stop holding your breath.
looks like kick off will take place around mid october with the five selected pilot brigades starting the 'trial' - results hopefully due within a month though it wont be rushed if it aint right!
thinking of a restructure - not the right time - wait till after the trials and the guidance is released
dave bev
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its now six brigades
l&b
t&w
warks
norfolk
devon
and now kent - first five are based on the best value groups - kent have just been added and agreed by the sub group of the njc -
oct 14th start date
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***** **** ** * ****
The abusive thread that was placed here has been removed.
The IP address of the user who posted it has been forwarded to his/her ISP for them to deal with under there anti abuse terms of membership.
It should be noted that just because a user is not a member of this forum we do not know where they come from, as this user will soon find out.
As the owner of this site I apologise for any embarrassment this may have caused our users. If anyone does see any future offensive wording on the site please notify me so that corrective action may be taken.
Thank you for your support
Colin Simpson
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Was that necessary?
Has it added anything useful to this debate?
Haven't you got the balls to put your name up if you are going to start throwing unexplained insults around?
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What, like everyone did during the strike when they were chucking insults at the Retained, Airport & Defence Fireys?? NOT!!!
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Shame on those who stoop to anonymous but public personal insults. And pity to them too for their limited intellect.
This forum is for sensible exchange of ideas and debate and those who post such drivel bring disrepute both to their profession and to this forum.
Please note that while you may think you are posting anonymously, your IP address is recoded next to each post.
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***** **** ** * ****
The abusive thread that was placed here has been removed.
The IP address of the user who posted it has been forwarded to his/her ISP for them to deal with under there anti abuse terms of membership.
It should be noted that just because a user is not a member of this forum we do not know where they come from, as this user will soon find out.
As the owner of this site I apologise for any embarrassment this may have caused our users. If anyone does see any future offensive wording on the site please notify me so that corrective action may be taken.
Thank you for your support
Colin Simpson
Good stuff. I hope that deters some of the "anonymous" posters who feel the need to be so rude.
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a date for your diaries
24th jan employers meet to discuss proposals re R2R
info should start 'filtering' out from that time onwards - looks like -
1 there will be a recognised and agreed process for R2R
2 .................................................................... A or B
3 .................................................... appeal process for both
a joint statement could also be issued - i would expect pretty soon after the EC meeting in Feb depending on the need to call a full njc or not
time to dust off your job descriptions and take a look at what you actually do compared to those descriptions, evidence of activity would be useful!
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Do the FBU do an annual diary. If so, I seem to have been mistakenly left off the mailing list at Christmas. Could this be rectified Davey?
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colin - as you are a pinky commie (unfortunately not a full blown redski) i can only offer you selected pages of aforementioned document. are there any particular pages you would like?
dave bev
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Since it is now well into the year, Feb-December will do, along with any dates for the Revolution, so I know to stay off the streets until you commies have everything under control and it is safe to come out and be presented to your Chairman. Is it still that woman from my home city?
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colin, can you confirm which year you require aforementioned documented calendary activity for and in which year you require it.
as for being presented to our president, you would have to demonstrate worthiness and renounce all capitalist activities before i could even consider it!
dave bev
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2005 2005 respectively. Awwwwww Ruthy wouldnt care if I am capitalist or not. She probably frequented the same dives of ill repute in the centre of the known universe as I did, so we would have lots to chat about other than politics. Besides, I was probably the only viewer of newsnight who understood much of what she was saying when she used words like ''fling''.
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for all the F&RS personnel -
back to the issue - the employers have released bits of the process, however that is not all the full process, there are other issues such as quality assurance, a code of practice on assessments, transfers (compulsory or otherwise) and importantly any pay protection measures - they say three years only - the fbu obviously have another view. if any brigades attempt to introduce by the back door must be reported to your fbu brigade committee asap
this affects everyone employed under grey book conditions of service irrespective of whichever organisation they belong to
dave bev