Article 15 of RRO

[CivvyFSO]

or is that just my bad luck?!!

I think it is fairly standard.

On the subject of reinspections: If I inspect somewhere that is a low risk then the risk rating will probably point towards reinspecting every 5-10 years. So regardless of its low risk rating that premises will pop up again in 5-10 years time and will be inspected alongside the high risk premises at the time.

So at some time in the future we will be inspecting both high risks and some premises that haven't been inspected for a long time. So hopefully the 'good' premises will only make up a small % of the workload and we can spend more time where we can make more of a difference.

[terry martin]

i am surprised at the frequency that Zimmy's brigade is scheduling reinspections. not that i disagree with it quite the opposite. my brigade seems to be at the opposite end of the scale.  for us the frequency for a high risk hotel is 2 years. For very low risk premises its a 1% sample each year, which means a premises 'in theory' would be inspect once every hundred years.
  when you think that the most important part of  fire safety is the management, how can a premises remain unchanged for that length of time? certainly not in the area i cover, occupiers change virtually every six months in some premises.
 The cynic in me thinks the overall objective of the government seems to be that they want us to be like the HSE and just carry out reactive inspections.

i should say at this point these are my views and not my employers

[CivvyFSO]

Apparently the whole 'audit' procedure is akin to HSE's enforcement model. I am not from a H&S background so I guess someone else could clarify that?

I would be likely to agree with the cynic in you. I can picture an office of 6 inspectors being dwindled down to 1 or 2, visiting complaints and visiting after a fire in someones premises.

[jokar]

Devon have already commenced this.  The CFOA model is that the FRS across England and Wales all do the same thing, but apparently not from the responses thus far.  Why Brigades are adapting something that they agreed to is beyond me.

[CivvyFSO]

So we should not be undertaking a reinspection programme? Or has devon got it wrong?

Am I remembering correctly that there's nothing in the Fire Services Act to specifically say we are obliged to inspect premises?

[Mike Buckley]

The cynic in me wonders how long it is going to be before targets are set for the number of inspections carried out putting the pressure on so that good premises are inspected (I can knock off 7 or 8 a day) as opposed to the bad (Oh God this is going to take me all day to inspect and the rest of the week to write up). I know it shouldn't happen but when the stats are demanded what is going to happen?

[terry martin]

Am I remembering correctly that there's nothing in the Fire Services Act to specifically say we are obliged to inspect premises?

the FSO states

Enforcement of Order
     26. —(1) Every enforcing authority must enforce the provisions of this Order and any regulations made under it in relation to premises for which it is the enforcing authority and for that purpose, except where a fire inspector or other person authorised by the Secretary of State is the enforcing authority, may appoint inspectors.

this is probably the closest you'll get, it mentions we must enforce the order but not how.

 some may argue that to enforce you need to periodically inspect, others may say we'll deal with each premises as and when they appear on our radar (i.e. AFR or after fire inspection).

this is probably why different brigades are enforcing the order to different standards.
personnally i think there should be a national standard, to have an act enforced differently just because of your geographical location to me seems ludicrous.

[wtfdik]

If article 15 talks about emergency plans and only article 9 & 11 require recording arrangments where is the requirement to record the emergency plan?

[jokar]

Inspection programmes are required by FRS by virtue of the National Framework document that goes with the 2004 Act and also IRMP Guidance Note 4.  As regards the comments by Terry, all Brigades have signed up to the CFOA audit model and the risk calculator that goes with this informs of the next re-inspection date.

[PhilB]

If article 15 talks about emergency plans and only article 9 & 11 require recording arrangments where is the requirement to record the emergency plan?

Article 11 requires the arrangements for the effective planning, control, monitoring and review of the preventive & protective measures to be recorded.

These preventive & protective measures are defined in Article 2 as the measures identified as the general fire precautions.

General fire precautions are defined in Article 4 and include measures in relation to means of escape. I would suggest that an emergency plan is one such measure.

[MHouse]

I am new to this forum but I would like an opinion on the following. The question is in regard to fire risk assessments on flats. The flats in question would not have been built in accordance with the current B Regs in fact some of them are in the region of 70yrs old. All have timber floors and generally only one staircase. The front doors to the flats are suspect but substantial ie heavy but no seals or in most cases no self closers. The FSO asks for fire alarm for the common area based on BS5839 pt1 but also Pt6 Grade A LD2. The question is should this installation include fire alarm call points and if so where would they be installed. My first thought was that at least one call point at the panel may be suffiecent., but on reflection perhaps no call points only detection. I realise that call points in the public domain may in many properties give rise to abuse and false alarms but these properties are in the top end on the market both cashwise and socially. The flats are being advised to install their own smoke detection system that will not be linked to the building alarm (so no burnt toast evacuations)

PeteG

[wtfdik]

Thanks Phil that was similar to my understanding along with the measures to be taken in the event of a fire including instruction and training that is also in the GFP.
What about the guidance documents definition of significant finding which includes the action to be taken in the event of a fire?

[PhilB]

I'm not a great fan of the new guides or their definition of significant findings but I would agree that action to be taken in event of fire would constitute a significant finding.

It would have been easier for all if they kept the same definition of SFs from the ACOP to MHSW Regs i.e

 1) A record of the preventive & protective measures
 2) An action plan for rectifying deficiencies and most importantly ....
 3) Proof of due process i.e.reasoning to support the conclusions

The new guides do not consider the last item to be relevant....when in fact it is the most important........but I've jumped on my soapbox many times on that subject

[terry martin]

Inspection programmes are required by FRS by virtue of the National Framework document that goes with the 2004 Act and also IRMP Guidance Note 4.  As regards the comments by Terry, all Brigades have signed up to the CFOA audit model and the risk calculator that goes with this informs of the next re-inspection date.

As i thought, but from hearing others in the forum it seems the frequency of reinspections is differing between brigades. if all brigades are following the same Audit model how can this be?

[jokar]

Now, your guess is as good as mine.  Political shenanigans perhaps.  The theory is that a national chain will have consistency across Brigades.