FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Operational => Topic started by: Guest on August 20, 2004, 10:35:22 AM
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There has been much speculation over the past few years about UK County Ambulance services being re alagametd with local fire authorites again forming county or metroplitan Fire and Ambulance Services.
A friend of mine is a high ranking offcier with a local ambulance service and said that it was highly likely in the next 12 months all ambulance services will be disolved and that responsibilty to provide ambulance cover will once again rest with local fire authorities.
The move come as ambulance services continually fail to meet response times laid down by the government
Has anyone else heard anything similar to this "rumour" if so Id be intrested to hear your thoughts and comments, do you think this is a good move?
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Well as there haven't been ambulance authorities for years now and they are all NHS trusts it isn't as easy as that, a few major laws would be required and that isn't quick (look at the RRO & FP(W) Regs).
Amalgamation will not help as you still won't have enough money or enough crews, unless you are going to go down the USroute of sending fire engines to ambulance calls (which will result in another strike, thst would collapse the country as the army struggles to do both fire work and ambulance work, the roads filling up with Green Goddesses & Land Rover 127 Ambulances).
If you want an ambulance service view cross post this subject at www.ambulance999.co.uk - it's their version of the Fire Net BBS
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There are still local authorty ambulance services actually.
They are still referred to as such even though strictly speaking they are NHS Trust services - but again they are official local governement ambulance services they are not contractors and they are not volunteers.
Anyhow getting back to the point
Yes the ambulance service is gearing up for the re-amalgamation from what I have been told again by senior management within my local ambulance service.
They just can't cope any longer and it is felt a joint brigade/ambulance service would help save money by centralising admin, control and workshops and indeed stations.
I think its highly likely and no-one is saying its iminent in that sense anthony b, of course it wouldnt happen overnight, but the person posing the question is asking if the wheels are in motion
I believe the answer is yes.
We are not talking about firecrews answering 999 calls instead of ambulances here that is just ridiculous !
We are talking about trying to make the ambulance service more efficient again so that fire engines dont have to answer medical calls!!!!!
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Why so ridiculous for fire crews to respond to 999 ambulance calls. Armed with basic life support training as many are already, O2 eqpt as many are already and defib eqpt as some are already it seems only logical that a fire crew be mobilised as a first/co-response intervention until the ambulance arrives. You know it makes sense.
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No have to disagree with the last comment.
Firecrews arent paramedics / ambulance technicians or even first responders.
Its different if they are first scene at a fire or rta for instance and someone needs first aid. The police always give first aid if they are there first at a scene as do firecrews but we cant be taked with dealing with just medical emergencies.
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Ok, lets get rid of the outdated practice of labelling incidents as Fire Service incidents , Ambulance incidents and Police incidents and re-categorise them as life threatening incidents. Surely it makes sense to send the nearest appropriately skilled and equipped emergency service to a life threatening medical emergency. In the old days what was the primary responsibility for the Fire Service? Answer to save life.
Don't confuse politics with the fact that at the end of the day people are dying in proximity to fire stations in the absence of an emergency ambulance and the fire crews on the said stations are often available to assist with appropriate skills and eqpt but can not attend or be mobilised due to petty and obstructive politics over riding common sense.
The answer to your point about Ffs not being first responders is naive, maybe not in your county but in others they are. I was during my stint in Derbyshire and would never have objected to attending selected medical emergencies providing my skills matched the needs of the patient.
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Whilst I have to admit Id never let someone die firefighter can not and MUST NOT repeat must not be tasked to respnd to medical emergencies priomarliy because they are only trained for first aid activities.
Non of theother emergency services should be burdened by the shortfalls of the ambulance service.
The fire service nor the police should thought of as an ambulance service that is not the purpose of their job roles.
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Its easy to make the assumption that all Fire Services are only trained to meet the HASAWA obligations relating to 1st aid at work. However more than just a few have already gone down the route of developing casualty care beyond the HASAWA ticket and as i have said in some areas appliances are carrying as standard more than the basic 1st aid at work eqpt (tri angular banadages and elastoplast). As to the point about 'letting someone die' how do you quantify this statement if you can't turn out to save the life in the first place using skills and eqpt to meet the needs of the patient.
Fair enough standard HASAWA 1st aiders can not and should not be turned out but what about turning out the 'appropriately skilled' personnel. Surely this can not be objectionable.
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Hi Anderson
You are missing the point here.
If you expect the fire brigade to do what you said then you might as well call them fire and ambulance authorities.
Ok lets reverse the argument. Do we expect Ambulance staff to put out fires? or cut people out of RTA?
The whole point of having three emergency services is for just that reason.
The police for law enforcement
The Brigade for fire and recue
Anbulance for medical
Its up to the ambulance services to push for better standards, funding and legislation this is not the firefighters argument.
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Whilst saving life is the primary role of ALL three emergency services, we cannot expect Fire Crews to undertake the emergency medical care role UNLESS they are already on scene dealing with another emergency. :!:
Ambulance Services UK wide are operating "First Responder" schemes in their local areas where trained volunteers are called upon to give first and fast response where an Ambulance cannot reach the casualty in a satisfactory time period.
First responders for those who dont know what they are are volunteers trained in advanced life saving and first aid techniques. They are trained to use defibulators and carry a technicians pack with them in their car.
Loosely speaking in a way they are like retained ambulance technicians although unlike the retained firefighters they dont race to their nearest ambulance station to man an ambulance. Instead they use their own vehicle to attend the incident.
I think that the worst thing the government could have done is privatise the ambulance service, although I except they are not contractors as such and still remain under the general control of the NHS.
The staff on the ground such as the technicians and paramedics do a fantastic job its the management that should be blamed for poor performance.
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Getting the same as the USA as they tested it there and in worked am i right ????
Best Regards
Andy 8)
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To crazy so, your definition of 1st responder is in part correct however there are inaccuracies. Whilst 1st responder is a form of retained amb srvce it is also the title of the accredited qualification commensurate with occupational 1st reponse casualty care. As such it is deemed to be a qual which more accurately reflects the cas-care element of the modern Ff role as opposed to the HASAWA ticket. Hence some Fire Services, Derbyshire for example (a previous Brigade of mine) correctly went down the route of replacing HASAWA with 1st responder for all operational personnel some 6-7 years ago.
I am not going to go down the route of banging my head against the wall on this one and as such this will be my last post on this subject. My last point however is that people within the FS need to wake up and recognise that in respect of life saving cas-care the public are not getting value for their tax dollar from either the FS or the amb srvce. Both services combine to demonstrate deficiency in terms of their attendance times (amb srvce) and underpinning skills/willingness to mobilise (FS). Progress needs to be made and this progress constitutes the development of the hearts and minds of some of the negative posters above.
Professionally yours,
Mike.
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You are right yes , but for the purposes of this argument I was describing the voluntary first responder scheme operated in many communities these days.
I take on board your point but was just trying describe as simply and clearly as possible what a first responder was to someone who doesnt know.
The problems with firefighters turning out to medical emergencies is three fold:-
1) It takes an appliance off the run that couldotherwise be free to deal with a fire, rescue, chem incident, RTC etc etc
2) Members of the public often angered to sdee fire engine turn up when they requested ambulance, not realising brigade members would be fully trained to give assistance
3) What medical emergencies will the brigade be expected to deal with - where is the cut off point??
Regards
Barry Jeffries TWFRS
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I did say that it would be my last post but i am being drawn in, you wily old dog (or indeed young pup). I am giving your points some consideration before drafting a reply. It pains me to say this but i am enjoying the debate.
Mike.
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ahhh I fall into the "Wily Old Dawg" category I'm afraid. I was born in the days when men were men and women were grateful and sheep were afraid!
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No medical call outs for the Brigade
First aid at the scene of an incident is one thing, becoming a secondary ambulance service is another.
No no no no no!
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To Barry,
I considered each of the points you raised and also came up with a few myself. However they are all based upon the traditional and current roles and perceptions of what all the emergency services in their current form are about in terms of both their legal and social duties and responsibilities.
The Fire Service especially is in a state of flux in relation to what its function and structure are all about and with things as they stand i feel change is inevitable. In its present form the Service nationally is probably not ideally positioned to take on the role of the paramedic service for some of the reasons you state, however you can bet that as part of the 'modernisation' agenda we soon will be. Say 2-3 yrs down the line maximum.
At the present time the vision of some is simply based on the 'principle' that FS resources could be utilised in a wider public service role. The barriers to the enactment of the principle some of which you state will be overcome through negotiation at both local and national level. Although i sadly feel that the negotiations will revolve around the identification of local solutions to meet national guidance which as we have found out to our cost are often not up for discussion.
What i feel this in essence means is that a co-response role for the FS will inevitably be driven nationally by the ODPM with only the 'local' issues for its enactment being subject to negotiation between the health authority, the fire authority and the rep bodies. Sorry to be so negative but i feel that the days of disputing and grievancing the will of higher authority are gone forever. What we might however be able to do is utilise our skills and experiences to ensure that when it does come we can negotiate the best possible solution for the sake of the public and the good standing of the Service. We are after all the premier emergency service and are therefore conditioned to sorting out other peoples problems or mis-adventures. This time however we'll have to do it to meet a political agenda.
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Sorry, the above was sumitted by Mike Anderson.
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;) Thats what these forums are all about - to gather ideas and point of views on wide ranging subject matter ! :D
I think eventually yes we will have to undertake the role which begs the question really about the original thread on this topic - are the fire and ambulance authorities slowly drifting back together soon to be rejoined?
The plot thickens, one thing I do agree with you on Mike is that the service will change forever now, its already started and in years to come fire and rescue may not actually be called fire and rescue !!!!!!
Who knows how it will evolve, but I think there is one thing we all agree on - the emergency services are there to save life .....and always will do.Readiness to protect always.
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What a fantastic idea for this thread. Just what might we be called in the future. Personally as a dinosaur i see nothing wrong with the term Fire Brigade. In the USA FDNY has not changed its brand identity in spite of changes to work practices. So why us?
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Aha! Indeed .
Well first we were Fire Brigades, then Fire and rescue services, some of us then became fire and civil defence...
In the future will our name change again to reflect the differing roles we cover?
Maybe the "Predominantly Fire but other emergencies as well service" could be one possibility.
Oh ignore me Im just being silly now!!!!
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I think its likely the fire brigade name will be changed in the future.
Very good point made I think.
Looks like not all Station Officers are thick!!!!! *chuckles* :rolleyes:
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Charming! Thanks for that (Im acting Station Commander actually - Thats Ass Div Off to the likes of you and me) ;)
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who's job do you want next, heh, how about you guys be Police Officers as well ... yes, have a go at that !!
lol :lol:
Best Wishes,
Karl
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We would Karl but we may get knicked!
Hope you aren't offended about this topic - we aren't having a go at paramedics in anyway shape or form - its the upper management of the ambulance service and to a degree the governement /NHS we question not you guys and girls on the front line.
Keep up to good work.
B Jeffries
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I cross posted this topic on the ambulance999 forum - if you want to see the ambulance crews response go over to the site & look
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whereabouts was it posted cos I ant find it mush!
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http://ambulance999.co.uk/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1425
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I saw your posting on ambulance999.co.uk and think it was slightly harsh there Anderson
We are not making this an argument between smoke eaters and the green on scene brigade as your thread seems to imply, although comments from our colleagues in the ambulance services would be more than welcome.
The question asked was as follows "does anyone think the ambulance and fire service be re amalgamated"!.
I've been a paramedic and a firefighter in my long and distinguished career .
Both the fire service and the ambulance service do a fantastic job, and i dont think any one on this forum is critisising front line paramedics in anyway shape or form.
There has been a lot of rumours banded about regarding ambulance and fire services being centralised and I think it was a fair question to ask.
Lets not make this a fire service v Ambulance service squabble :evil:
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Have been on the site you mention and cannot find anything submitted by me whatsoever. FS v AMB/Paramedic, exactly where have you seen make this comparison or question the commitment of the members of either service. I have endeavoured to approach this topic from the point of view of the current political agenda and the need for improvement in performance standards at the point of service delivery. All my points on this have nothing to do with the points you raise in respect of the content and tone of my contribution. It seems you are reading an agenda into my contributions that simply doesn't exist.
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Mr Anderson sir I apologise unreservedly I meant to Say Anthony B not your goodself
Anthony B old boy the above thread as written by myself was meant for you!
What a pratt I am
I will in future try and get peoples names right
Anderson once again my apologies
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We would Karl but we may get knicked!
Hope you aren't offended about this topic - we aren't having a go at paramedics in anyway shape or form - its the upper management of the ambulance service and to a degree the governement /NHS we question not you guys and girls on the front line.
Keep up to good work.
B Jeffries
lol, i am not a Paramedic :(
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Interesting
Wonder how that will affect the Nationisation of Fire Contriols
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Interesting
Wonder how that will affect the Nationisation of Fire Contriols
surely the nationalisation of fire controls was a response the the dummy spitting and teddy throwing fest that has been any attempt to co-locate Police and fire controls and offer space to Ambulance control i nthe same location ( given that the o****y councils control Police and fire services and have NO control over the Ambulance service whatsoever)
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we carry oxygen therapy units and defibs on our pumps but i couldn't possibly try to maintain the high level of competence that both of the roles require, (i'd spend all my time in a classroom somwhere and never get out on the run again)
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Ok, lets get rid of the outdated practice of labelling incidents as Fire Service incidents , Ambulance incidents and Police incidents and re-categorise them as life threatening incidents .
ok fair enough then when the only fire appliance in a town is tied up dealing with the drunkard in the town centre who has fallen over and knocked his head , and a call comes in for a house fire or petrol spill we can then mobilise a ambulance to deal with that later incident can we?
i think the aim has to be to improve the ambulance service not to simply pass over their workload to other authorities.
i am however not entirely against a amalgamation of services. it works very succesfully in many countries.