Almagamation Of Uk Ambulance and Fire Authorities

[Guest]

There has been much speculation over the past few years about UK County Ambulance services being re alagametd with local fire authorites again forming county or metroplitan Fire and Ambulance Services.

A friend of mine is a high ranking offcier with a local ambulance service and said that it was highly likely in the next 12 months all ambulance services will be disolved and that responsibilty to provide ambulance cover will once again rest with local fire authorities.

The move come as ambulance services continually fail to meet response times laid down by the government

Has anyone else heard anything similar to this "rumour" if so Id be intrested to hear your thoughts and comments, do you think this is a good move?

[AnthonyB]

Well as there haven't been ambulance authorities for years now and they are all NHS trusts it isn't as easy as that, a few major laws would be required and that isn't quick (look at the RRO & FP(W) Regs).

Amalgamation will not help as you still won't have enough money or enough crews, unless you are going to go down the USroute of sending fire engines to ambulance calls (which will result in another strike, thst would collapse the country as the army struggles to do both fire work and ambulance work, the roads filling up with Green Goddesses & Land Rover 127 Ambulances).

If you want an ambulance service view cross post this subject at www.ambulance999.co.uk - it's their version of the Fire Net BBS

[Guest]

There are still local authorty ambulance services actually.

They are still referred to as such even though strictly speaking they are NHS Trust services - but again they are official local governement ambulance services they are not contractors and they are not volunteers.

Anyhow getting back to the point

Yes the ambulance service is gearing up for the re-amalgamation from what I have been told again by senior management within my local ambulance service.

They just can't cope any longer and it is felt a joint brigade/ambulance service would help save money  by centralising admin, control and workshops and indeed stations.

I think its highly likely and no-one is saying its iminent in that sense anthony b, of course it wouldnt happen overnight, but the person posing the question is asking if the wheels are in motion

I believe the answer is yes.

We are not talking about firecrews answering 999 calls instead of ambulances here that is just ridiculous !

We are talking about trying to make the ambulance service more efficient again so that fire engines dont have to answer medical calls!!!!!

[Guest]

Why so ridiculous for fire crews to respond to 999 ambulance calls. Armed with basic life support training as many are already, O2 eqpt as many are already and defib eqpt as some are already it seems only logical that a fire crew be mobilised as a first/co-response intervention until the ambulance arrives. You know it makes sense.

[Guest]

No have to disagree with the last comment.
Firecrews arent paramedics / ambulance technicians or even first responders.
Its different if they are first scene at a fire or rta for instance and someone needs first aid. The police always give first aid if they are there first at a scene as do firecrews but we cant be taked with dealing with just medical emergencies.

[Guest]

Ok, lets get rid of the outdated practice of labelling incidents as Fire Service incidents , Ambulance incidents and Police incidents and re-categorise them as life threatening incidents. Surely it makes sense to send the nearest appropriately skilled and equipped emergency service to a life threatening medical emergency. In the old days what was the primary responsibility for the Fire Service? Answer to save life.
Don't confuse politics with the fact that at the end of the day people are dying in proximity to fire stations in the absence of an emergency ambulance and the fire crews on the said stations are often available to assist with appropriate skills and eqpt but can not attend or be mobilised due to petty and obstructive politics over riding common sense.
The answer to your point about Ffs not being first responders is naive, maybe not in your county but in others they are. I was during my stint in Derbyshire and would never have objected to attending selected medical emergencies providing my skills matched the needs of the patient.

[Guest]

Whilst I have to admit Id never let someone die firefighter can not and MUST NOT repeat must not be tasked to respnd to medical emergencies priomarliy because they are only trained for first aid activities.
Non of theother emergency services should be burdened by the shortfalls of the ambulance service.

The fire service nor the police should thought of as an ambulance service that is not the purpose of their job roles.

[Guest]

Its easy to make the assumption that all Fire Services are only trained to meet the HASAWA obligations relating to 1st aid at work. However more than just a few have already gone down the route of developing casualty care beyond the HASAWA ticket and as i have said in some areas appliances are carrying as standard more than the basic 1st aid at work eqpt (tri angular banadages and elastoplast). As to the point about 'letting someone die' how do you quantify this statement if you can't turn out to save the life in the first place using skills and eqpt to meet the needs of the patient.
Fair enough standard HASAWA 1st aiders can not and should not be turned out but what about turning out the 'appropriately skilled' personnel. Surely this can not be objectionable.

[Guest]

Hi Anderson

You are missing the point here.

If you expect the fire brigade to do what you said then you might as well call them fire and ambulance authorities.

Ok lets reverse the argument. Do we expect Ambulance staff to put out fires? or cut people out of RTA?

The whole point of having three emergency services is for just that reason.

The police for law enforcement

The Brigade for fire and recue

Anbulance for medical

Its up to the ambulance services to push for better standards, funding and legislation this is not the firefighters argument.

[Guest]

Whilst saving life is the primary role of ALL three emergency services, we cannot expect Fire Crews to undertake the emergency medical care role UNLESS they are already on scene dealing with another emergency.  :!:

Ambulance Services UK wide are operating "First Responder" schemes in their local areas where trained volunteers are called upon to give first and fast response where an Ambulance cannot reach the casualty in a satisfactory time period.

First responders for those who dont know what they are are volunteers trained in advanced life saving and first aid techniques. They are trained to use defibulators and carry a technicians pack with them in their car.

Loosely speaking in a way they are like retained ambulance technicians although unlike the retained firefighters they dont race to their nearest ambulance station to man an ambulance. Instead they use their own vehicle to attend the incident.

I think that the worst thing the government could have done is privatise the ambulance service, although I except they are not contractors as such and still remain under the general control of the NHS.

The staff on the ground such as the technicians and paramedics do a fantastic job its the management that should be blamed for poor performance.

[Guest]

Getting the same as the USA as they tested it there and in worked am i right ?


Best Regards

Andy  

[Guest]

To crazy so, your definition of 1st responder is in part correct however there are inaccuracies. Whilst 1st responder is a form of retained amb srvce it is also the title of the accredited qualification commensurate with occupational 1st reponse casualty care. As such it is deemed to be a qual which more accurately reflects the cas-care element of the modern Ff role as opposed to the HASAWA ticket. Hence some Fire Services, Derbyshire for example (a previous Brigade of mine) correctly went down the route of replacing HASAWA with 1st responder for all operational personnel some 6-7 years ago.
I am not going to go down the route of banging my head against the wall on this one and as such this will be my last post on this subject. My last point however is that people within the FS need to wake up and recognise that in respect of life saving cas-care the public are not getting value for their tax dollar from either the FS or the amb srvce. Both services combine to demonstrate deficiency in terms of their attendance times (amb srvce) and underpinning skills/willingness to mobilise (FS). Progress needs to be made and this progress constitutes the development of the hearts and minds of some of the negative posters above.
Professionally yours,
Mike.

[Guest]

You are right yes , but for the purposes of this argument I was describing the voluntary first responder scheme operated in many communities these days.

I take on board your point but  was just trying describe as simply and clearly as possible what a first responder was to someone who doesnt know.

The problems with firefighters turning out to medical emergencies is three fold:-

1) It takes an appliance off the run that couldotherwise be free to deal with a fire, rescue, chem incident, RTC etc etc

2) Members of the public often angered to sdee fire engine turn up when they requested ambulance, not realising brigade members would be fully trained to give assistance

3) What medical emergencies will the brigade be expected to deal with - where is the cut off point??

Regards

Barry Jeffries TWFRS

[Guest]

I did say that it would be my last post but i am being drawn in, you wily old dog (or indeed young pup). I am giving your points some consideration before drafting a reply. It pains me to say this but i am enjoying the debate.
Mike.

[Guest]

ahhh I fall into the "Wily Old Dawg" category I'm afraid. I was born in the days when men were men and women were grateful and sheep were afraid!