Green break glasses

[Tom Sutton]

green box the norm.

What is the norm? In most situations the escape route will approach the door from the unsecured side and you can operate the door like any other door in what scenario do you require green glass boxes?

[Wiz]

But I just don't see where you are coming from.

Yes of course they are a substitutes, if you want to call them that, in as much as the gubbins inside arent housed in a green box with "emergency break glass" on it.

Its the workings of a green box just not in a green box disguised as something else.

Still does the same job I just dont see why you fail to grasp the concept

Retty just pointed out that you can disguise them as an aside comment to the main thrust of his post

I you deliberately being facetious? Whats the problem here?

The actual wording Retty used was:

.....Green boxes can be disguised........

Can you not understand that such wording might encourage the unwary to not fit a green emergency door release switch when requested, but some other 'disguised' switch instead because Retty and Clevelandfire says that it is o.k. to do so.

If an application requires a green emergency door release it is for a specific purpose i.e a releasing device that can be easily seen, easily identified and easily used by everyone in an emergency.

The item Retty mentioned is actually a disguised 'request to exit ' switch. It actually doesn't do 'the same job' as you seem to think.

 Therefore there is a difference. You might think it is a subtle difference, but I dont. The difference should be made clear to our readers.

Please don't make any more comments about my ability to 'grasp concepts' if it relates to the technical aspects of electrical safety and security systems or make accusations that I'm being facetious (I might be sarcastic but never facetious!). I have over 30 years of experience in respect of the former and not enough time for the latter.

I'm sorry if I was not clear in my earlier posts.  I just mentioned it in passing as an addition really to the main posters question.

But a disguised green box isn't  a request to exit button necessarily.

Some request to exit buttons are not wired directly to the locking mechanism, they are sometimes wired via the same relay that gets actuated by the fire alarm, and in my original post I clearly state that green boxes may not be wired in this way.

A disguised green box is exactly that and as Cleveland rightly points out  the inner workings and circuitry of the green box is used and put into something like a light switch say or under a blank cover which flips up to reveal a button underneath.

Going back to the point of green boxes not being used in public areas. Our brigade will not accept their use in public areas as tests have shown almost conclusively that people (even with informative signage) do not know what they are there for and what they do. Plus as with call points some people dont klike the idea of "breaking " the glass (on the older style ones) as they think they might be billed to replace the glass, or might get a cut from the glass.

Clearly other brigades may accept different standards, and yes we are in the days of risk assessment, all I would say is excercise caution when considering them in public circulation areas.

Midland Retty, I fully appreciate that where keypads/prox readers are installed, then, invariably. connections for a direct request to exit switch areprovided (this method provides the benefit of a timed 'request to exit' facility) but not all systems have request to exit switches wired in this way. It is possible to wire a normally-closed request to exit switch directly into the electrical feed to the lock.

I maintain the term 'disguised' shouldn't be used with the words green and/or emergency door release switch so as to avoid confusion for the real purpose of the green emergency door release switches that are often recommended. Whether people understand their operation or not, they are the only piece of equipment currently available to do this job that is universally (mostly!) understood.

I maintain that in the circumstances you originally described and the item you described, would have better been called a 'disguised request to exit switch'

I understood what you were getting at from the beginning, but I was concerned that others might have misinterpreted it from the words that you used.

[Wiz]

green box the norm.

What is the norm? In most situations the escape route will approach the door from the unsecured side and you can operate the door like any other door in what scenario do you require green glass boxes?

If the door has a fail-safe electrical locking method relying on a request-to-exit switch to release it, then it is the 'norm' to provide an aditional lock switching device linked to the operation of the fire alarm and also, in case all else fails, a method of releasing the door by a green coloured emergency release switch.

If the door has a simple to use normal handle (or similar) that provides a mechanical action that physically somehow overides the locking facility then the fire alarm interface and green emergency door release might not be required (assuming that emergency use is only required in the escape direction of the 'mechanical overide' facility)

[Midland Retty]

The actual wording Retty used was:

.....Green boxes can be disguised........

Can you not understand that such wording might encourage the unwary to not fit a green emergency door release switch when requested, but some other 'disguised' switch instead because Retty and Clevelandfire says that it is o.k. to do so.

If an application requires a green emergency door release it is for a specific purpose i.e a releasing device that can be easily seen, easily identified and easily used by everyone in an emergency.

The item Retty mentioned is actually a disguised 'request to exit ' switch. It actually doesn't do 'the same job' as you seem to think.

 Therefore there is a difference. You might think it is a subtle difference, but I dont. The difference should be made clear to our readers.

Please don't make any more comments about my ability to 'grasp concepts' if it relates to the technical aspects of electrical safety and security systems or make accusations that I'm being facetious (I might be sarcastic but never facetious!). I have over 30 years of experience in respect of the former and not enough time for the latter.

I'm sorry if I was not clear in my earlier posts.  I just mentioned it in passing as an addition really to the main posters question.

But a disguised green box isn't  a request to exit button necessarily.

Some request to exit buttons are not wired directly to the locking mechanism, they are sometimes wired via the same relay that gets actuated by the fire alarm, and in my original post I clearly state that green boxes may not be wired in this way.

A disguised green box is exactly that and as Cleveland rightly points out  the inner workings and circuitry of the green box is used and put into something like a light switch say or under a blank cover which flips up to reveal a button underneath.

Going back to the point of green boxes not being used in public areas. Our brigade will not accept their use in public areas as tests have shown almost conclusively that people (even with informative signage) do not know what they are there for and what they do. Plus as with call points some people dont klike the idea of "breaking " the glass (on the older style ones) as they think they might be billed to replace the glass, or might get a cut from the glass.

Clearly other brigades may accept different standards, and yes we are in the days of risk assessment, all I would say is excercise caution when considering them in public circulation areas.

Midland Retty, I fully appreciate that where keypads/prox readers are installed, then, invariably. connections for a direct request to exit switch areprovided (this method provides the benefit of a timed 'request to exit' facility) but not all systems have request to exit switches wired in this way. It is possible to wire a normally-closed request to exit switch directly into the electrical feed to the lock.

I maintain the term 'disguised' shouldn't be used with the words green and/or emergency door release switch so as to avoid confusion for the real purpose of the green emergency door release switches that are often recommended. Whether people understand their operation or not, they are the only piece of equipment currently available to do this job that is universally (mostly!) understood.

I maintain that in the circumstances you originally described and the item you described, would have better been called a 'disguised request to exit switch'

I understood what you were getting at from the beginning, but I was concerned that others might have misinterpreted it from the words that you used.

Hi Prof

So long as the "request to exit switch" has been wired in the same way as the green box would be then it would do exactly the same job yes.

[Wiz]

I'm sorry if I was not clear in my earlier posts.  I just mentioned it in passing as an addition really to the main posters question.

But a disguised green box isn't  a request to exit button necessarily.

Some request to exit buttons are not wired directly to the locking mechanism, they are sometimes wired via the same relay that gets actuated by the fire alarm, and in my original post I clearly state that green boxes may not be wired in this way.

A disguised green box is exactly that and as Cleveland rightly points out  the inner workings and circuitry of the green box is used and put into something like a light switch say or under a blank cover which flips up to reveal a button underneath.

Going back to the point of green boxes not being used in public areas. Our brigade will not accept their use in public areas as tests have shown almost conclusively that people (even with informative signage) do not know what they are there for and what they do. Plus as with call points some people dont klike the idea of "breaking " the glass (on the older style ones) as they think they might be billed to replace the glass, or might get a cut from the glass.

Clearly other brigades may accept different standards, and yes we are in the days of risk assessment, all I would say is excercise caution when considering them in public circulation areas.

Midland Retty, I fully appreciate that where keypads/prox readers are installed, then, invariably. connections for a direct request to exit switch areprovided (this method provides the benefit of a timed 'request to exit' facility) but not all systems have request to exit switches wired in this way. It is possible to wire a normally-closed request to exit switch directly into the electrical feed to the lock.

I maintain the term 'disguised' shouldn't be used with the words green and/or emergency door release switch so as to avoid confusion for the real purpose of the green emergency door release switches that are often recommended. Whether people understand their operation or not, they are the only piece of equipment currently available to do this job that is universally (mostly!) understood.

I maintain that in the circumstances you originally described and the item you described, would have better been called a 'disguised request to exit switch'

I understood what you were getting at from the beginning, but I was concerned that others might have misinterpreted it from the words that you used.

Hi Prof

So long as the "request to exit switch" has been wired in the same way as the green box would be then it would do exactly the same job yes.

M.R. , you may address me as Dr Wiz, if you wish, but not Prof - Kurnal is the only Prof. I know of residing in this home for the slightly bewildered

The answer to your question is obviously yes. But that is not the point that I was making, as I suspect you well understand! I won't go over it again - it is clearly detailed above.

[Midland Retty]

I suspect you well understand!

Dr Wiz I'm afraid I dont, youve lost me!

I understand what you mean about green boxes being conspicuous so that people are able to locate / use them.

The term "disguise" was used to make reference to premises such as young offenders institutes and similar  where the provision of green boxes compromises security.

In such circumstances you could utilise a "disguised switch" (not a green box, but a switch wired the same way as a green box) which staff are aware of and can activate if or when required.

Of course this would only be acceptable where the fire evacuation policy included for staff physically marshalling the evacuation - as you say it would be wholly unacceptable to disguise such a switch if the offenders were allowed to evacuate under their own volition.

Are we 'eating from the same care home dinner menu' now Wiz old chap ?

[Wiz]

I suspect you well understand!

Dr Wiz I'm afraid I dont, youve lost me!

I understand what you mean about green boxes being conspicuous so that people are able to locate / use them.

The term "disguise" was used to make reference to premises such as young offenders institutes and similar  where the provision of green boxes compromises security.

In such circumstances you could utilise a "disguised switch" (not a green box, but a switch wired the same way as a green box) which staff are aware of and can activate if or when required.

Of course this would only be acceptable where the fire evacuation policy included for staff physically marshalling the evacuation - as you say it would be wholly unacceptable to disguise such a switch if the offenders were allowed to evacuate under their own volition.

Are we 'eating from the same care home dinner menu' now Wiz old chap ?

M.R. - I am losing the will to fight. My strength is ebbing away fast. This may, of course, be due to the poor quality of sustenance served up in this home, or by the amount of physical abuse I'm receiving from Matron.

My post began in response to your use of the wording.... Green boxes can be disguised

I maintain that 'green boxes' (by which you mean Green Emergency Door Release switches) should never be disguised.

I agree that 'request to exit' switches (in any of their forms) may be disguised (in fact I have come up with a number of nifty variations of them myself over the years)

I am in reasonable agreement with your latest description in your last post because it now clearly uses the phrase ....not a green box, but a switch wired the same way as a green box

I understand that Prof. K (a fellow resident of this home) has discovered a special elixir that enables him to post on this forum a hundred times a day. I will now seek him out and ask if he has any elixir to spare for the rest of us.

[Clevelandfire]

I suspect you well understand!

Dr Wiz I'm afraid I dont, youve lost me!

I understand what you mean about green boxes being conspicuous so that people are able to locate / use them.

The term "disguise" was used to make reference to premises such as young offenders institutes and similar  where the provision of green boxes compromises security.

In such circumstances you could utilise a "disguised switch" (not a green box, but a switch wired the same way as a green box) which staff are aware of and can activate if or when required.

Of course this would only be acceptable where the fire evacuation policy included for staff physically marshalling the evacuation - as you say it would be wholly unacceptable to disguise such a switch if the offenders were allowed to evacuate under their own volition.

Are we 'eating from the same care home dinner menu' now Wiz old chap ?

M.R. - I am losing the will to fight. My strength is ebbing away fast. This may, of course, be due to the poor quality of sustenance served up in this home, or by the amount of physical abuse I'm receiving from Matron.

My post began in response to your use of the wording.... Green boxes can be disguised

I maintain that 'green boxes' (by which you mean Green Emergency Door Release switches) should never be disguised.

I agree that 'request to exit' switches (in any of their forms) may be disguised (in fact I have come up with a number of nifty variations of them myself over the years)

I am in reasonable agreement with your latest description in your last post because it now clearly uses the phrase ....not a green box, but a switch wired the same way as a green box

I understand that Prof. K (a fellow resident of this home) has discovered a special elixir that enables him to post on this forum a hundred times a day. I will now seek him out and ask if he has any elixir to spare for the rest of us.

Youve lost the will? Well congratulations you have given me a headache.

I just can't see you logic at all. You could IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES disguise a green box because you dont want CERTAIN people using them when they shouldnt.

I could go and buy a green box now off the shelf from WF Electrical or similiar, you know what I mean dont you? those green boxes with a break glass on the front? they're green with 'emergency door release' or similar printed on the front? yes ? do you understand? then make a resess in the wall so that it fits flush with the wall and then cover it with say a light switch cover which unbeknownst to anyone else actually lifts up to reveal the green box behind if I really wanted to!

No better still tell you what Ill hang a painting infront of it. The staff know its there, the kids dont!

How is that not disguising or hiding its prescence? And why is that such a crime? Admitedly it is a long winded way of achieving the objective, but I could do that if I wanted and it wouldnt be wrong!

So your argument perpetually kicks itself up the backside Im afraid

What really has angered me now is MR rephrases his terminology in a bid to appease you and and all you say is that youre in "reasonably agreement" Well either you agree for security reasons you may want to have an emergency release switch / button / device / lever / knob which is discrete to prevent illicit use or you dont

Now which is it?

I mean Im not sure whats going on here or whether you really are in a care home but for goodness sake I doubt Ive ever met anyone so picky.

What was said originally IMHO wasn't misleading or confusing, but it is now youve added your ten penny worth
What an ididotic argument this has become! Im sorry but just how silly!

[Wiz]

Dr Wiz I'm afraid I dont, youve lost me!

I understand what you mean about green boxes being conspicuous so that people are able to locate / use them.

The term "disguise" was used to make reference to premises such as young offenders institutes and similar  where the provision of green boxes compromises security.

In such circumstances you could utilise a "disguised switch" (not a green box, but a switch wired the same way as a green box) which staff are aware of and can activate if or when required.

Of course this would only be acceptable where the fire evacuation policy included for staff physically marshalling the evacuation - as you say it would be wholly unacceptable to disguise such a switch if the offenders were allowed to evacuate under their own volition.

Are we 'eating from the same care home dinner menu' now Wiz old chap ?

M.R. - I am losing the will to fight. My strength is ebbing away fast. This may, of course, be due to the poor quality of sustenance served up in this home, or by the amount of physical abuse I'm receiving from Matron.

My post began in response to your use of the wording.... Green boxes can be disguised

I maintain that 'green boxes' (by which you mean Green Emergency Door Release switches) should never be disguised.

I agree that 'request to exit' switches (in any of their forms) may be disguised (in fact I have come up with a number of nifty variations of them myself over the years)

I am in reasonable agreement with your latest description in your last post because it now clearly uses the phrase ....not a green box, but a switch wired the same way as a green box

I understand that Prof. K (a fellow resident of this home) has discovered a special elixir that enables him to post on this forum a hundred times a day. I will now seek him out and ask if he has any elixir to spare for the rest of us.

Youve lost the will? Well congratulations you have given me a headache.

I just can't see you logic at all. You could IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES disguise a green box because you dont want CERTAIN people using them when they shouldnt.

I could go and buy a green box now off the shelf from WF Electrical or similiar, you know what I mean dont you? those green boxes with a break glass on the front? they're green with 'emergency door release' or similar printed on the front? yes ? do you understand? then make a resess in the wall so that it fits flush with the wall and then cover it with say a light switch cover which unbeknownst to anyone else actually lifts up to reveal the green box behind if I really wanted to!

No better still tell you what Ill hang a painting infront of it. The staff know its there, the kids dont!

How is that not disguising or hiding its prescence? And why is that such a crime? Admitedly it is a long winded way of achieving the objective, but I could do that if I wanted and it wouldnt be wrong!

So your argument perpetually kicks itself up the backside Im afraid

What really has angered me now is MR rephrases his terminology in a bid to appease you and and all you say is that youre in "reasonably agreement" Well either you agree for security reasons you may want to have an emergency release switch / button / device / lever / knob which is discrete to prevent illicit use or you dont

Now which is it?

I mean Im not sure whats going on here or whether you really are in a care home but for goodness sake I doubt Ive ever met anyone so picky.

What was said originally IMHO wasn't misleading or confusing, but it is now youve added your ten penny worth
What an ididotic argument this has become! Im sorry but just how silly!

Clevelandfire, I have long held the opinion that the rudeness you exhibit in your posts is not really becoming of the spirit of this forum. You are also lacking in the most basic elements of a sense of humour. This forum is littered with your stupidly argumentative and aggressive posts. I really don't know how you have survived expulsion from the forum.

I have now come to the conclusion that you are also too stupid to understand the most simple explanations and I will therefore no longer bother to enter in any discussions with you, because it is a waste of my time.

[Midland Retty]

Perceived rudeness, offensiveness, sarcasm and other general negative banter aside I think I would have to conclude both Wiz and Cleveland are correct in what they say about the use of exit switches and indeed disguising or sorry the hiding of green boxes.

[GregC]

From reading this topic a lot of usefull infomation has been written that people can refer to as and when they need guidence, I would say that Cleveland has a recent knowledge of topic and has reserched since the topic started, Wiz, like very many members has a historical knowledge that cannot be taught in any class or from any collegue, it is this knowledge and experience that makes this forum so popular as us "youngsters" seek guidence, opinions will and do vary and always will.

From my pespective a green call point is a single action exit device, it is green in colour for a reason, once it is altered by any means that changes its identification or design it cannot be classed as an emergency door release as the manufacture intended its use.

We also use various means of assiting staff access but resticting residents for H&S reasons different customers have different policys that they adopt and manage inhouse.(FA signal to release doors as a minimum)

From Wiz's post I interpret that his point was;

Do you provide a means of escape for a select few (modified request to exit device)

Or provide a means of escape for everybody (green breakglass with correct signage)

By taking a green call point and modifying it in any way not suported by the manufacturer wouldn't be acceptable imo.

Modifying a RTE device is the industry norm.

A question, does the signs act have any relevance on green call points, I notice they are available with signage that seems to have been designated somewhere, if so would this override any of the topic opinions and give a definative answer ?

[Clevelandfire]

GregC

Have dealt with green boxes for yonks. I do subsribe to the fact that if you change the physical curcuitry of the green box then you have done something beyond the manufaturers recommendations.

Changing the appearance doesn't necessarily affect anything so long as staff know what it is. It could be pink with yellow spots or hidden by a painting so long as staff know its there than fine.

But as you corectly pointed out you cannot do this is public areas because the public wouldnt know what the strange mr blobby button is for or that the emergency door release is behind the painting.

Request to exit or exit in an emergency, same thing really is it not in the context of what we have been talking about? At the end of the day all we are doing is providing a switch that will release the doors in an emergency.

And this was my gripe with Wiz - Does it really matter what it is called, so long as the relevant people know what it is and what it is for? And if it is an interntaionally recognised sign or device then you should not moidify it else that would confuse people.

In my experience signage does not help in advising people on what action is to be taken with green boxes. Either through panic, or lack of it, they tend to take little notice of signage and as Retty points out there are other human behaviour issues associated with these types of device. New designs help with this issue but even still I would urge you to collar a few punters and ask them if they know what a green box does. I guarantee no one will.

[Wiz]

From reading this topic a lot of usefull infomation has been written that people can refer to as and when they need guidence, I would say that Cleveland has a recent knowledge of topic and has reserched since the topic started, Wiz, like very many members has a historical knowledge that cannot be taught in any class or from any collegue, it is this knowledge and experience that makes this forum so popular as us "youngsters" seek guidence, opinions will and do vary and always will.

From my pespective a green call point is a single action exit device, it is green in colour for a reason, once it is altered by any means that changes its identification or design it cannot be classed as an emergency door release as the manufacture intended its use.

We also use various means of assiting staff access but resticting residents for H&S reasons different customers have different policys that they adopt and manage inhouse.(FA signal to release doors as a minimum)

From Wiz's post I interpret that his point was;

Do you provide a means of escape for a select few (modified request to exit device)

Or provide a means of escape for everybody (green breakglass with correct signage)

By taking a green call point and modifying it in any way not suported by the manufacturer wouldn't be acceptable imo.

Modifying a RTE device is the industry norm.

A question, does the signs act have any relevance on green call points, I notice they are available with signage that seems to have been designated somewhere, if so would this override any of the topic opinions and give a definative answer ?

GregC, I'm sure you appreciate and understand that the term 'green box' would be understood in these forums to be an emergency door release switch and that emergency door release switches have a universal defined and understood purpose in the fire industry of being an easily identified, easily used method of releasing an electromagnetic door lock in an emergency by anyone who needs to.

My original post was to make it clear that M.R.'s use of the words 'green boxes can be disguised'  should not be an invitation to the unwary to 'hide' this very important piece of equipment just because they had a reason to do so.

M.R. was talking about a disguised method of releasing the electromagnetic lock by persons autorised to do so. In these circumstances such a device should be called a 'disguised request to exit switch' and it's purpose should never considered to be an acceptable alternative to the purpose required of a green box/emergency door release switch.

[Midland Retty]

M.R. was talking about a disguised method of releasing the electromagnetic lock by persons autorised to do so. In these circumstances such a device should be called a 'disguised request to exit switch' and it's purpose should never considered to be an acceptable alternative to the purpose required of a green box/emergency door release switch.

Dr Wiz

You have lost me again now I'm afraid.

This issue has become very confused.

I thought you agreed exit switches could be used in security sensitive areas to perform the same function as a green box?

Can I just re-iterate that in some establishments such as nursing homes with dementia patients the use of green boxes in conspicuous locations would compromise security. In my experience DE patients can come to realise that by pressing the green box, the door will open and they can wander out of the care home.

Scenario 1 The care home's final exits are all held closed by magnetic door locks and inline with our brigade policy need to have emergency door release switches (which would ordinarily be the humble green box)

To combat the problem of patients activating the green boxes another method of opening the door in an emergency was accepted. It does the same job as a green box, but looks like a conventional light switch. Why is this any different in its function to a green box? Why would that not acceptable so long as rigid staff training was carried out? Remember the doors should release on the fire alarm, the light switch would only act as a failsafe means of opening the doors, and is not for general useage.  I accept it isnt a green box its a switch, but it does do the same job.

Scenario 2 - A care home has put in the green boxes and finds that naughty service users (a bit like you Wiz trying to escape from Matron) have cottoned onto the fact they can open the doors. They therefore leave the green boxes in situ but cover them with a drape, or one of Clevelandfire pieces of art. The staff know where the green boxes are but the service users dont. So here we have hidden the green box (rather than disguised it)

I know you feel we are a bit slow the uptake regarding the points you made and you have re-iterated your point many times but perhaps if you put it across in another it might click into place for me, Im always happy to stand corrected if Im wrong.

Am not sure about our northern chum though, have you heard about his activities in the wind?.

[Wiz]

Mr M.R. I will try a final explanation!
I totally agree that the function of your 'disguised' switch has the same effect on the door as an emergency door release switch. My original post took issue with the terminology you used i.e. 'Green boxes can be disguised'. It is only this terminology that I have ever had issue with.
If we accept the term 'green box' to mean the generally well-known 'green emergency door release switch' I feel that is wrong to give the impression that these can ever be 'disguised'. because if you do, they are no longer 'green boxes' (green emergency door release switches)
In your scenarios (which I fully understand because I have been involved with such situations myself) your disguised switch is actually a 'disguised resquest to exit switch'. Your scenario does not actually include any emergency door release switch at all because the general understanding of the purpose of a 'green emergency door release switch' (green box) is that it is easily clearly visable, easily used and available for use by everyone, which your disguised switch obviously is not!
If I was to re-write the gist of your original post taking into account my humble opinions I would have written something like;
'Most situations involving an electromagnetic door look would require the provision of a green emergency door release switch for emergency overiding of the lock, if other methods failed in an emergency.
In situations where security may be compromised by the inclusion of such a switch but access through the door is necessary during normal or in emergency situations but only under the control of authorised persons, another door release switching method may be installed, if acceptable within a risk assessment. This switch would be for use by the authorised persons only by means of hiding or disguising the switch in some way, or by using a key or keypad/proximity type switching arrangement'
The above is the best I can do with the limited time and brainpower that I have available. If you still can't see the point I have been trying to make, then I can only aplogise for my failure and I regret the time and effort we have both put in to try and clarify our points of view.
I am now retiring to the safety of matron's bosom and begging that she mixes some Nitrazepam into the Northern fellow's nightcap.