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THE REGULATORY REFORM (FIRE SAFETY) ORDER 2005 => Q & A => Topic started by: SamFIRT on September 19, 2015, 09:43:13 PM
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Illuminated or luminous signs. Hi folks.....Is there a requirement for fire signs to be luminous these days? If a premises is not being used after dark, do the signs even have to be illuminated? Is this just a marketing ploy by sign manufacturers? I am thinking of schools particularly. These seem to be peppered with expensive manufactured luminous signs these days.
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Illuminated or luminous signs. Hi folks.....Is there a requirement for fire signs to be luminous these days? If a premises is not being used after dark, do the signs even have to be illuminated? Is this just a marketing ploy by sign manufacturers? I am thinking of schools particularly. These seem to be peppered with expensive manufactured luminous signs these days.
Is there a requirement for fire signs to be luminous these days?
Never that I have heard of but don't confuse luminous and illuminated signs.
If a premises is not being used after dark, do the signs even have to be illuminated?
If there is nobody there you don't have to illuminate anything. If you can see a sign it is illuminated regardless as to what is providing the illumination I.E. natural or artificial means.
Is this just a marketing ploy by sign manufacturers?
Kinda but internally illuminated exit signs can be handy, if this is what you mean. You usually need a sign to be illuminate at all relevant times when for example in a place of assembly where the normal illumination can or may be reduced i.e. cinema or perhaps a club or theatre, so that the exit is always obvious. This can be done during times of reduced light internally or with an EL within 1M of an exit sign. It is usually a requisite of an entertainment or cinema licence - in NI anyway.
I am thinking of schools particularly. These seem to be peppered with expensive manufactured luminous signs these days.
No need. Bit like luminous signs for extinguishers.
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If BS5266-1 is being followed to the letter there would be no need for any photoluminescent signage as the exit routes and fire points should all have sufficient lighting levels.
A few photoluminescent exit signs do not a photoluminescent emergency way guidance system (that would preclude the need for EL) make.
It's also not realised by many end users that without constant exposure to light the signs will not have sufficient 'charge' to be able to produce the duration or intensity of illumination needed.
They are actually quite cheap, they just have a massive mark up on them!
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Excluding theatres, cinemas, clubs and such like, illuminated exit signs are not required and if emergency lighting is required a luminaire close enough to illuminate the exit sign is all that is required and then you can use the exits signs conforming to the latest guidance.
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I agree with Tom, to put it basically the requirement is that the signs can be seen when the power fails, how that is achieved is up to the Responsible Person.
So all options are in the game, illuminated by an Emergency Light, photoluminescant (where you are sure it will be charged), purpose built luminaire or standard bulkhead EL with stickers on it. it will depend on the site, use of the site and anything else. For example the standard bulkhead light fitting with stickers in a school may be vulnerable to being unpeeled by schoolkids etc.
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Agreed Mike but a problem is most of the illuminated exit signs conform to the Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996, so called Euro signs and the remainder of the premises uses BS EN ISO 7010:2012+A5:2015 signs, as recommended by BS 5499-4:2013 which means there are two types of sign which is against the latter guidance.
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Yes mixing signs seems to be a problem all over the place. However it is hardly surprising as I find most people a) do not know there are two different standards of sign, b) even if they do, they don't know the difference and c) just tend to order fire exit signs from a catalogue anyway and use what comes in the box.
Technically I have to inform them that they need to standardise on one of the two standards, which one doesn't matter.
Practically are the people who need to follow the signs along an escape route a) going to know the difference, b) care? (Unless rabid members of UIKIP?)
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Technically I have to inform them that they need to standardise on one of the two standards, which one doesn't matter.
Is there still the third variant in the NHS (with flames licking behind the running man)?
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Technically I have to inform them that they need to standardise on one of the two standards, which one doesn't matter.
Is there still the third variant in the NHS (with flames licking behind the running man)?
Yes the HTM 65 Design is still manufactured and sold, usage is a bit hit and miss both in and out of healthcare premises.
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Mike despite what you say I think it is important that fire risk assessors and building control officers fully understand the situation so they are able to advise and educate Responsible Persons and Architects so the messes we see now are reduced or even eradicated.
Check out http://www.icel.co.uk/files/docs/icel-ts3-1431610424.pdf
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Yes I agree that Fire Risk Assessors, Building Control, Approved Inspectors etc. understand the situation and yes, education is the answer. However we need to keep perspective on the issue otherwise we will find ourselves in heated debate over the arrangement of the deckchairs on the Titanic.
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Lets not overlook ISO 7010 when discussing exit signage.
http://www.ifsecglobal.com/which-fire-escape-signs-quick-guide-to-bs-en-iso-7010/
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Is there still the third variant in the NHS (with flames licking behind the running man)?
Yes the HTM 65 Design is still manufactured and sold, usage is a bit hit and miss both in and out of healthcare premises.
Very hit and miss; last time I was in the hospital (only a couple of years ago) they still had pre-pictogram signs in use.
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It seems to me that the fire safety industry - aided and abetted by various standards organisations, legislation and bureaucrats have made a right dog's dinner of fire exit signs. I for one would like this mess sorted out asap
My main issue is with the idea that a limited mixing of sign designs is seen by many professionals as such a terrible 'crime' - As long as they can be understood by those who might need to refer to them - does it really matter?
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I fully agree Messy its not a major safety issue but it needs sorting out and I believe FR assessors and BCO's can force the issue.
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I don't think that it is an issue that can be 'forced'. The problem with the BCO is that they only see the builiding in the construction stage and once the building is signed off they have little power. The real issue is education, as both the RP and the sign suppliers have little idea of the various standards of the signs or the recommendations on their installation. I am certain if you walked in to a retailer who sells signs and asked the person behind the counter for a British Standard Fire Exit sign they would have not idea which sign to give you.
I agree its a real mess and needs to be sorted out but I can't see the people who created the mess doing anything about it.
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Mike I mean forced, because, the premises has to be inspected on occupation to sign off the premises and issue a completion certificate would this not be an ideal time to ensure the signage was satisfactory.
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Not necessarily, I would expect a new build to have all the same standard of signage basically because the builder would buy in bulk from one supplier thereofre I would expect them all to be of the same standard. The issue tends to come to a head if modifications are carried out which don't require planning permission, signs are replaced because they are old, broken etc. or a fire risk assessment says that more signs are needed or escape routes are changed.
The other issue comes with the architects, designers etc. I have been into a place which had been recently refurbished with exit signs which had pink lettering on a white background. The designer was worried that green signs would conflict with his vision of the interior decor! Yes I did put him right but he was not a happy chappy.
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I get a number of question on this subject, had a question the other week on a new build (University) and I shop at a Lidl, which had total rip out and refurbish, both used 5549/7010 standard signs but all illuminated exit boxes are Euro type signs, I just feel BCO's should be doing something about it. :'(
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Thank you one and all. I am quite pleased with the discussion I sparked. Very interesting. As they used to say on Rowan and Martin. :D
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Are we saying that the people these signs are to convey information to will be confused by two different signs along an escape route? Are we saying that? A green sign, be it a running man or "Exit", will be confusing?
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No I think the argument is more about drawing a line in the sand. We have two main standards and the aim is to just use one standard in an individual premise.
The idea that the design of the sign doesn't matter as long as it gives the information tends can lead to choas. How effective would a fire exit sign be in a Restaurant if for example it is in Chinese (its a Chinese restaurant and it fits in with the ethnicity of the place) is blue (fits in with the decor) and has no pictogram (looks ugly)? It still gives the information.
The easiest solution is to stick with the two standards and try to get uniformity throughout the premise. Just like the paperless office we will never suceed bit it is goal to aim for. At the same time keep a sense of perpestive no-one is going to close the place because they have the wrong sign.
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I saw a Euro sign in Ireland last week in a baker/cafe. The running man had been professionally replaced by a stick-man baker carrying a tray of loaves running towards the door. :) It was amusing and in no way detracted from what the sign meant - in fact, it made the sign more noticeable to diners.
I have also seen the Euro sign altered to show a black letter 'A', 'B' 'C' and so on within the white door symbol to indicate different escape staircases or routes. This allowed the Resp Person to control the evacuation by issuing voice alarm messages where route has become busy or blocked.
This is why I favour a less prescriptive approach and more risk assessed approach to escape signage
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(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8c/96/b1/8c96b16b068b0b3b0070dfe3e9928d9d.jpg)
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Reminiscent of Benny Hill!
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(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8c/96/b1/8c96b16b068b0b3b0070dfe3e9928d9d.jpg)
That's just the sort of signage we need.
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I would have thought someone putting them up is likely to find themselves in an equal opportunities civil rights court. And quite rightly too. This type of humour is not acceptable in the 21st Century.
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personally I can see nothing offensive whatsoever?
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personally I can see nothing offensive whatsoever?
There appear to be no men, people with visible disabilities, or women in burkas, depicted in the pictogram.
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Does that make something offensive or illegal?
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It depicts women panicking in an emergency situation following a running man. By implication only the man is able to deal effectively with the situation by remaining calm and making appropriate use of the escape route. The women are depicted as emotional and not effective..... Comments regarding Benny Hill make it even worse. That was then. This is now. IMHO.
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Whoa there!
Its simply an advert for Axe deodorant which is the French version of Lynx over here. In a similar ad campaign, women find men irresistible if men wear the stuff and I think it's quite amusing and in no way degrading
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe_%28brand%29
It's simply humour
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour
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Like all these things its is a matter of perception. This changes with time and society's views. :-\ It used to be acceptable to wolf whistle at women at work. It no longer is...... and quite rightly.
My point is that such a variant of an exit sign placed in a UK workplace may well elicit the response I gave. The law would be on the side of the complainant. If someone is offended, it is offensive.
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Thanks Sam , I guess there may be many wishing to challenge the equalities and respect aspects of Sams point, myself included but would ask that such discussions are via a non technical thread in the meeting room at the base of the forum page. we should seek to preserve the purpose and good factual fire safety guidance on firenet without contaminating it with subjective political discourse.
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For the love of....
I see four people running after another person who seems to be running into a wall. Perhaps they are running after the person to prevent tha injuring themselves? Perhaps the front person stole something? Perhaps they are in a race?
I dont see a man or woman. I see 5 people, some who are wearing clothes, if they want to, running forwards or backwards.
Gees where are we?
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we should seek to preserve the purpose and good factual fire safety guidance on firenet without contaminating it with subjective political discourse.
Agreed. :-X