Author Topic: Illuminated or luminous signs  (Read 26341 times)

Offline SamFIRT

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Illuminated or luminous signs
« on: September 19, 2015, 09:43:13 PM »
Illuminated or luminous signs. Hi folks.....Is there a requirement for fire signs to be luminous these days? If a premises is not being used after dark, do the signs even have to be illuminated? Is this just a marketing ploy by sign manufacturers? I am thinking of schools particularly. These seem to be peppered with expensive manufactured luminous signs these days.
Sam

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Illuminated or luminous signs
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2015, 10:25:22 PM »
Illuminated or luminous signs. Hi folks.....Is there a requirement for fire signs to be luminous these days? If a premises is not being used after dark, do the signs even have to be illuminated? Is this just a marketing ploy by sign manufacturers? I am thinking of schools particularly. These seem to be peppered with expensive manufactured luminous signs these days.
Is there a requirement for fire signs to be luminous these days?
Never that I have heard of but don't confuse luminous and illuminated signs.

If a premises is not being used after dark, do the signs even have to be illuminated?
If there is nobody there you don't have to illuminate anything. If you can see a sign it is illuminated regardless as to what is providing the illumination I.E. natural or artificial means.

Is this just a marketing ploy by sign manufacturers?
Kinda but internally illuminated exit signs can be handy, if this is what you mean.  You usually need a sign to be illuminate at all relevant times when for example in a place of assembly where the normal illumination can or may be reduced i.e. cinema or perhaps a club or theatre, so that the exit is always obvious. This can be done during times of reduced light internally or with an EL within 1M of an exit sign. It is usually a requisite of an entertainment or cinema licence - in NI anyway.

I am thinking of schools particularly. These seem to be peppered with expensive manufactured luminous signs these days.
No need. Bit like luminous signs for extinguishers.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Illuminated or luminous signs
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2015, 12:35:57 AM »
If BS5266-1 is being followed to the letter there would be no need for any photoluminescent signage as the exit routes and fire points should all have sufficient lighting levels.

A few photoluminescent exit signs do not a photoluminescent emergency way guidance system (that would preclude the need for EL) make.

It's also not realised by many end users that without constant exposure to light the signs will not have sufficient 'charge' to be able to produce the duration or intensity of illumination needed.

They are actually quite cheap, they just have a massive mark up on them!
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Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Illuminated or luminous signs
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2015, 08:10:45 AM »
Excluding theatres, cinemas, clubs and such like, illuminated exit signs are not required and if emergency lighting is required a luminaire close enough to illuminate the exit sign is all that is required and then you can use the exits signs conforming to the latest guidance.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline Mike Buckley

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Re: Illuminated or luminous signs
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2015, 11:34:35 AM »
I agree with Tom, to put it basically the requirement is that the signs can be seen when the power fails, how that is achieved is up to the Responsible Person.

So all options are in the game, illuminated by an Emergency Light, photoluminescant (where you are sure it will be charged), purpose built luminaire or standard bulkhead EL with stickers on it. it will depend on the site, use of the site and anything else. For example the standard bulkhead light fitting with stickers in a school may be vulnerable to being unpeeled by schoolkids etc.

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Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Illuminated or luminous signs
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2015, 03:34:37 PM »
Agreed Mike but a problem is most of the illuminated exit signs conform to the Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996, so called Euro signs and the remainder of the premises uses BS EN ISO 7010:2012+A5:2015 signs, as recommended by BS 5499-4:2013 which means there are two types of sign which is against the latter guidance.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline Mike Buckley

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Re: Illuminated or luminous signs
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2015, 04:21:57 PM »
Yes mixing signs seems to be a problem all over the place. However it is hardly surprising as I find most people a) do not know there are two different standards of sign,  b) even if they do, they don't know the difference and c) just tend to order fire exit signs from a catalogue anyway and use what comes in the box.

Technically I have to inform them that they need to standardise on one of the two standards, which one doesn't matter.

Practically are the people who need to follow the signs along an escape route a) going to know the difference, b) care? (Unless rabid members of UIKIP?)
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Offline Owain

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Re: Illuminated or luminous signs
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2015, 08:26:54 PM »
Technically I have to inform them that they need to standardise on one of the two standards, which one doesn't matter.

Is there still the third variant in the NHS (with flames licking behind the running man)?

Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Illuminated or luminous signs
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2015, 11:11:47 PM »
Technically I have to inform them that they need to standardise on one of the two standards, which one doesn't matter.

Is there still the third variant in the NHS (with flames licking behind the running man)?

Yes the HTM 65 Design is still manufactured and sold, usage is a bit hit and miss both in and out of healthcare premises.
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Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Illuminated or luminous signs
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2015, 10:18:14 AM »
Mike despite what you say I think it is important that fire risk assessors and building control officers fully understand the situation so they are able to advise and educate Responsible Persons and Architects so the messes we see now are reduced or even eradicated.

Check out http://www.icel.co.uk/files/docs/icel-ts3-1431610424.pdf
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline Mike Buckley

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Re: Illuminated or luminous signs
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2015, 10:36:16 AM »
Yes I agree that Fire Risk Assessors, Building Control, Approved Inspectors etc. understand the situation and yes, education is the answer. However we need to keep perspective on the issue otherwise we will find ourselves in heated debate over the arrangement of the deckchairs on the Titanic.
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Offline kurnal

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Re: Illuminated or luminous signs
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2015, 10:47:35 AM »
Lets not overlook ISO 7010 when discussing exit signage.

http://www.ifsecglobal.com/which-fire-escape-signs-quick-guide-to-bs-en-iso-7010/

Offline Owain

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Re: Illuminated or luminous signs
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2015, 08:24:27 PM »
Quote
Is there still the third variant in the NHS (with flames licking behind the running man)?
Yes the HTM 65 Design is still manufactured and sold, usage is a bit hit and miss both in and out of healthcare premises.

Very hit and miss; last time I was in the hospital (only a couple of years ago) they still had pre-pictogram signs in use.

Offline Messy

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Re: Illuminated or luminous signs
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2015, 11:11:54 PM »
It seems to me that the fire safety industry - aided and abetted by various standards organisations, legislation and bureaucrats have made a right dog's dinner of fire exit signs. I for one would like this mess sorted out asap

My main issue is with the idea that a limited mixing of sign designs is seen by many professionals as such a terrible 'crime' -  As long as they can be understood by those who might need to refer to them - does it really matter?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 11:13:27 PM by Messy »

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Illuminated or luminous signs
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2015, 11:27:05 AM »
I fully agree Messy its not a major safety issue but it needs sorting out and I believe FR assessors and BCO's can force the issue.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.