Author Topic: 7273 and location of detectors  (Read 65967 times)

Offline David Rooney

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 891
    • http://ctafire.co.uk
Re: 7273 and location of detectors
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2009, 10:47:53 AM »
Well I've got a copy..... and similar to Wiz I raised concerns over its implications and how it could possibly be implemented practically.

We are duty bound to inform our clients of this standard in order to cover our Rss and then tell them no one in the galaxy that we know of can provide a fully compliant system.

It generally meets with blank expressions with an underlying kind of "what's the point then?" look of dismay.
CTA Fire - BAFE SP203 - F Gas Accredited - Wireless Fire Alarm System Specialists - Established 1985 - www.ctafire.co.uk
Natural Born Cynic

Offline Wiz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1591
Re: 7273 and location of detectors
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2009, 05:49:37 PM »
Well done David.

I am determined to get the problems regarding BS7273 out in the open.

I appreciate the people who worked on it did so with the best intentions, but if none of us in the trade can cope with it, what is the point of it?

On numerous occasions on this foruum, I've set the challenge for someone to provide an understandable summary of it's recommendations

No-one has stepped forward and until they do, I will continue to denigrate it.

I ask everyone who should understand this BS, and can't, to own up on these pages.

Only then might something happen.

Offline David Rooney

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 891
    • http://ctafire.co.uk
Re: 7273 and location of detectors
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2009, 09:52:06 PM »
Well done David.

I am determined to get the problems regarding BS7273 out in the open.

I appreciate the people who worked on it did so with the best intentions, but if none of us in the trade can cope with it, what is the point of it?

On numerous occasions on this foruum, I've set the challenge for someone to provide an understandable summary of it's recommendations

No-one has stepped forward and until they do, I will continue to denigrate it.

I ask everyone who should understand this BS, and can't, to own up on these pages.

Only then might something happen.


So what does it actually take to get the men in black to admit they've overcooked it and rethink ??
CTA Fire - BAFE SP203 - F Gas Accredited - Wireless Fire Alarm System Specialists - Established 1985 - www.ctafire.co.uk
Natural Born Cynic

Offline Clevelandfire 3

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 566
Re: 7273 and location of detectors
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2009, 12:33:40 AM »
Ive read it and can't understand it.As an ex enforcer and now a risk assessor who isnt as technically minded as an installer i find the document frustrating, non sensical and totally unhelpful. It wouldnt help me in either role. As such I ignore it completely. Money for nothing as usual.

As for the fire officer who "expected" to see a 1.5 metre spacing (if that was the case) then I'd have to say he or she doesn't know what theyre talking about and really ought to worry about more important things. Its not often I agree with Wiz but on this subject I think he is totally correct. As far as Im concerned BS's should be free of charge, should be accountable and open to the peopel that use them and whilst I do respect and doth my cap to a lot of experts that sit on these panels I have to say a lot of it is down to an insular old boys club.

It dilutes what the BS is about. What a shame! The standards are supposed to give guidance, common sense guidance, to lay clear marks in the sand, and also offer suitable alternatives where a preferred option or method cant be achieved. They are by the very nature of what they stand for supposed to guide we mere mortals into the light, its high time that some of these experts came out and explained there logic. Im not hostile, ill listen to reasoned argument and logic, but once again a faceless panel gets paid x ammount to come up with something i think they dont actually understand. Rather like a brain surgeon - very intelligent can do wonders with brains but couldnt put up a shelf.

We need real world thinkers, not blue sky thinkers who talk the talk but never actually walked the walk
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 12:42:58 AM by Clevelandfire 3 »

Offline colin todd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3473
  • Civilianize enforcement -you know it makes sense.
    • http://www.cstodd.co.uk
Re: 7273 and location of detectors
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2009, 03:35:00 AM »
Odd though that CFOA, who, of course, being firemen, fully understand the complexities of electronic systems (though the advice they gave previously had a circuit diagram that was not a circuit) had no problem with the standard all through the development of it, when they sat on the committee responsible. Nor did the 2 representatives of the trade (BFPSA as was) who were entirely happy. And it went out to the public for comment as well. Bit late to moan now. Avoid it at your peril and dont come moaning when the bodies are in the mortuary and you are in the dock- if you think thats melodramatic it was two deaths (one involving electronic locks that did not release and the other involving an old lady knocked over by the release of doors by MDHs) that were the last straw in causing the deveopment of this standard. Sorry we wanted locks to let people out of buildings when the fire alarm fails and the locks wont otherwise release automatically, but we thought it a good idea not to trap people in burning buidlings. Clearly, this was an over-reaction on our part given that its all too much bother to avoid trapping them.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline David Rooney

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 891
    • http://ctafire.co.uk
Re: 7273 and location of detectors
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2009, 11:35:46 AM »
It's alright to say "avoid it at your peril" but when the manufacturer's haven't developed or at least haven't introduced the technology yet to achieve its requirements how do we then fair in the dock?

And who were the BFPSA members?

Perhaps we should ask them how the standard should be applied and with what control equipment......?
CTA Fire - BAFE SP203 - F Gas Accredited - Wireless Fire Alarm System Specialists - Established 1985 - www.ctafire.co.uk
Natural Born Cynic

Offline Wiz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1591
Re: 7273 and location of detectors
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2009, 05:45:46 PM »
Odd though that CFOA, who, of course, being firemen, fully understand the complexities of electronic systems (though the advice they gave previously had a circuit diagram that was not a circuit) had no problem with the standard all through the development of it, when they sat on the committee responsible. Nor did the 2 representatives of the trade (BFPSA as was) who were entirely happy. And it went out to the public for comment as well. Bit late to moan now. Avoid it at your peril and dont come moaning when the bodies are in the mortuary and you are in the dock- if you think thats melodramatic it was two deaths (one involving electronic locks that did not release and the other involving an old lady knocked over by the release of doors by MDHs) that were the last straw in causing the deveopment of this standard. Sorry we wanted locks to let people out of buildings when the fire alarm fails and the locks wont otherwise release automatically, but we thought it a good idea not to trap people in burning buidlings. Clearly, this was an over-reaction on our part given that its all too much bother to avoid trapping them.

Colin, I have no problem with the intent of the BS, and whilst I might have opinions that some of the recommendations seem a bit of an overkill, this is not the nub of my frustration with this BS. I can't understand why your post focuses on the actual need for the BS, when I have not read any posts on this thread that argue that it is not needed.

I have a problem in the way it is written and set out. It is too confusing. Every person I know who has read it agrees with me. Surely you would agree that it is pointless having any BS that is too difficult to understand by those that need to understand it?

I also have a problem with a BS that includes recommendations that are seemingly impossible to comply with by using the type of equipment that is currently available. Are you able to recommend an addressable control panel that has all the abilities required by BS7273 to control electromagnetic door holders via a loop-powered output unit?

It appears to me that other posters on this forum have the same problems.

I have the greatest respect for the purpose behind British Standards and I consider that mostly they are very well written considering the difficulties encountered in producing such documents.

Unfortunately, this one is a turkey!



Offline Galeon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 556
  • Dont ask me on here for advice , come down the Pub
Re: 7273 and location of detectors
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2009, 06:23:18 PM »
Do the best you can with what you have , then list as many variations to cover your rear.
All will come clear when I am retired as the kit in the field might have just caught up .
Look on the bright side at least you can upset as many consultants who want the doors included in a fire spec that reads 'complies to 5839 part 1 2002 . ;D 
Its time to make a counter attack !

Offline Wiz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1591
Re: 7273 and location of detectors
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2009, 06:42:20 PM »
..........................................Look on the bright side at least you can upset as many consultants who want the doors included in a fire spec that reads 'complies to 5839 part 1 2002 . ;D 

Galeon, I'd never want to upset a consultant who wanted that! I'd be able to hide behind his ignorance as well as my own  ;)

Obviously, if he wanted 'the BS we don't like to mention' I'd have to say 'well explain to me what I have to do and how I can achieve it'

Offline colin todd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3473
  • Civilianize enforcement -you know it makes sense.
    • http://www.cstodd.co.uk
Re: 7273 and location of detectors
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2009, 01:54:44 AM »
1. Our very good friends in the fire service always thought that these things totally failed safe and were nothing less than shocked to find that, notwithstanding their high standards of training in electronic systems, born of years of driving fire engines, in fact they had been totally oblivious to how they worked and universally failed to properly fail safe, as born out by your posts.
2. On the horror of realisation, they, quite rightly, wanted systems to perform as guides from home office and then dtlr and then odpm and then clg ALL, for many years, said they should and always had said so. It was a classic lack of communication between the industry and the enforcers.
3. We laid it on the line that no one had ever in the history of mankind actually paid a blind bit of notice to Government guidance on this subject established over many years, and the trade had got away with it because the enforcers did not take any interest or have any clear understanding of how the circuits actually worked. The fact that people are still happy to flaunt the guidance is evidence of this.
4. Quite rightly, the committee decided that-sorry to repeat myself-it was really not a good idea to trap people in a burning building or allow fire to spread unchecked by open fire doors, simply because of a fault on the fire alarm system.
5. The trade were not only warned of the "change", which was not a change at all, but merely a continuation of what had always been in guides on the FP Act, and were consulted over the issue of I/O units, the difficulties for which we were all not only well aware but disucssed at length. Consultation took the form of one of the largest manufacturers in the land and one of the smallest in the land to get a spread. It was agreed if thats what we wanted the trade would provide it-although contrary to postings one manufacturer already could.
6. Finally, there is clearly a misunderstanding by many regarding the interface between codes of practice and products. To clarify it is the CODES OF PRACTICE that say how things are to perform. Product standards and manufacturers then need to make products that do this. This is a fundamental and long established principle. To say, we should not ask for people not to be trapped in a burning building because people want to use products that will allow this is, frankly, stupid. Its a bit like saying that we cant have legislation that cars should have reduced emissions because cars have high pollutant emission and its all too much bother to design products that meet the requirement.
If you want to know who represented BFPSA, ask FIA. As it happens, both have been personal friends of mine for many years and they are extemely technically competent.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Wiz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1591
Re: 7273 and location of detectors
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2009, 10:27:52 AM »
There are many new elements being brought into this discussion and I will respond to them first.

a) The methods of controlling electromagnetic door releases and holds that I have used in the thirty years I have been involved in the fire alarm system industry have always been based on fail-safe principles.  Not withstanding any documentation that may have been produced by the Fire Service I have always found that most fire alarm engineers understood and followed the basic principles. I will accept that the actual methods used (based on the equipment that was available to be used) were not perfect. But then again surely nothing is. Show me your solution and I'll find something with it that is not fail-safe!

I have no problem with the intent in improving the fail-safe integrity of these sort of systems. (Even if they do include things such as a time delay and warning buzzer before the release of door holders because there has been a case where someone was knocked over by a closing door. I'm sorry but in my opinion a time delay and warning buzzer will not prevent many of the type of people I see these days in Elderly Persons Homes from getting hit by a closing door.)


B) Colin Todd states that one manufacturer does already produce an I/O unit that complies with the recommendations but doesn't mention which it is. Does anyone else know which one this is? I would have thought this manufacturer would be swamping the trade press with advertisiments about being the only company with such a product. I haven't seen anything, have you?
I thought Colin may be talking about the Hochiki powered I/O unit, but unless I've misunderstood things, using this unit will provide the fail-safe requirement of fail-safe when losing power to the loop,  but it still won't automatically fail-safe if there are some of the faults elsewhere on the system that 7273  recommends. Can anyone else confirm this?

C) Obviously, if new legislation requires new equipment, this shouldn't be a hurdle to making this new legislation. But I feel Colin's analogy is flawed by the fact that car manufacturers were given many years notice of new pollutant emission requirements before they were enforced. 7273 is in force now.

Notwithstanding all of the above I would confirm that the biggest problem with 7273 is that too many people have lots of trouble understanding it. They argue that it is difficult to read and is confusing.

I still await someone's explanation summary of it, to prove me wrong!
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 10:29:35 AM by Wiz »

Offline David Rooney

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 891
    • http://ctafire.co.uk
Re: 7273 and location of detectors
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2009, 12:50:16 PM »

Wiz I had a conversation with BBC a while ago and they "believed" the Notifier 3000 panel could do it but couldn't confirm at that time.

Surely if the BFPSA "reps" have agreed the principles, they should have instructed all their members to modify their panels accordingly... otherwise what's the point of the organisation?
CTA Fire - BAFE SP203 - F Gas Accredited - Wireless Fire Alarm System Specialists - Established 1985 - www.ctafire.co.uk
Natural Born Cynic

Offline Wiz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1591
Re: 7273 and location of detectors
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2009, 02:39:43 PM »
David, Hopefully CT will reveal the name of this equipment he knows about, and we can solve at least one problem.

There must be someone out there who knows how to comply with the BS, but I am beginning to have my doubts.


Offline Galeon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 556
  • Dont ask me on here for advice , come down the Pub
Re: 7273 and location of detectors
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2009, 06:28:28 PM »
Wiz if you use the same 240v supply as the panel and use the salamander kit wire a relay perm energised on fault and fire thats the job done.
In the scheme of things you and I know that don't help if you are a distance from the panel (which is 99.9% of the time).
So unless the above applies in relation to the panel you cant do no more than that.
I will use a judgement , and I am afraid thats all we can do.
In relation to doors closing injuring old people , I have just stopped one property whose door mags all 40 of them (not overheads) being replaced as they don't close , by a cowboy firm who rode into town.
As the premises don't close them (they are linked to the panel for closure , in fire don't you know - h&s officer). It seems they still are magnetised when called to close , a quick rub with sandpaper and a time clock to close when all the old dears are in bed was called for.
Whats worse doors that are retained and don't close or the risk it may shut on someone , well its 11.30 pm closure on this job , and if they are still coming back from the pub then at that hour , I shall get my kids to book me in to that home  ;)
Its time to make a counter attack !

Offline Wiz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1591
Re: 7273 and location of detectors
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2009, 09:05:36 PM »
Wiz if you use the same 240v supply as the panel and use the salamander kit wire a relay perm energised on fault and fire thats the job done.
In the scheme of things you and I know that don't help if you are a distance from the panel (which is 99.9% of the time).
So unless the above applies in relation to the panel you cant do no more than that.
I will use a judgement , and I am afraid thats all we can do.......................................

Galeon, I don't have 7273 in front of me right now, but I do have a copy of some very basic notes I took some months ago that I jotted down before my eyes glazed over and my small brain started throbbing. These notes seem to suggest that in a category A system the fail-safe doors should operate within the following times for all of the following circumstances affecting the fire alarm system and on any part of it:
120s - Open or short circuit
3 or 60s - Reduction of power supply voltage
32m - Failure of normal supply
17m - Failure of standby supply
120s - Open or short circuit on mcp or detector circuit
120s - Removal of any mcp or detector designed to be detachable
120s - Earth fault
120s - Fuse failure
120s - Software fault
120s - Disablement
120s - Failure of radio activated systems

Are you saying that the fault relay contacts you talk about on your fire panel operate for all of these conditions?

I welcome anyone explaining any errors, if I have misunderstood my notes.