FireNet Community
FIRE SAFETY => Fire Alarm Systems => Topic started by: david911cockburn@btintern on March 10, 2011, 08:55:06 AM
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Hi All,
How are you intending to warn somebody that they are coming home to a burning flat?
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Using basic fire engineering principles:
You leave your flat at time 'x' to go to the corner shop.
At time 'y' the chip pan busts in to flame.
There will be a set period where the fire stays at a constant size, but heats up the surroundings.
At time 'z' the surroundings burst into flame.
This fire then follows an exponential growth curve, with a factor built in to scale it down.
At a calculated point, the flames are hitting the ceiling, the temperature is approx 600 degrees and flashover occurs.
At this point your radial sounder circuitS explode.
This creates a huge amount of heat and we now have a fully involved fire.
At this point someone external to the building is likely to see the fire and ring 999.
Then the fire starts to run out of fuel and starts to decay.
At this point the fire service arrive.
So basically, if you see a big fire engine with lots of people in protective gear running around then there is a slim chance that your flat is on fire.
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Very complicated equation Civvy.
The flames come out the windows will be a dead give away.
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Yes, but lets not simplify it that much. It is not really the ethos of fire safety now is it? (Where is BLEVE nowadays anyway?)
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I believe he has gone to Deep Space Module 2984 by the Sea for an extended break. This is the year of the Mayan prophecy of absolute and utter doom for man and woman kind on this planet.
Should we read anything more into his absence?
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The approach to a flat entrance is protected by 60min FR - if you open the door and there's a fire, you turn your back on it and walk out - the door will be on a self closer and will shut behind you. Being able to turn your back on fire is one of the ideals of means of escape. the alarms are provided within an flat because there is usually one way out, which can be blocked if a fire is allowed to develop undetected, so smoke detectors are placed in the hallway.
Are you trying to flog pagers connected to a fire alarm system as well as time delayed smoke detectors? This scenario could happen to anyone in any building - if I was the first one in to the office I could be greeted by a fire, and there would be no warning if a manual system was provided. If you can find evidence of this being a life threatening problem, please share it with us.
If 'Little Junior' arrived home on his own, maybe a case of child abandonment, and social services may be better than a fire safety officer!
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So you provide nothing and if little junior gets home before a passer by notices the fire, little junior opens his front door to an inferno!
David. Are you not taking this a little too far? What about a burglar alarm so that little junior will not open the door to one engaged in his profession and doing nasty things to the little darling to shut him up?
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Hi All,
How are you intending to warn somebody that they are coming home to a burning flat?
give them a wee call on the mobile and tell them not to rush home for their Pot noodle as it has been burned. Stay out for a another pint at least.
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No I don't believe that any right minded person would believe that I was taking this too far!
not when your involved-no way ;D
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I must not be right minded then. Anyway, it has always been a principle that a fire alarm was only needed if necessary due to the layout and size of the building, the fire risk etc. and not as a means of demonstrating affluence.
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Isnt the purpose of a fire detection & alarm system to protect the escape routes and raise the alarm in order that occupants may make their escape (should they have to) and not for the purpose you mention David.
If you were to approach your front door and the house was on fire I think even Stevie Wonder would be sus there was a problem without coming to any harm.
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Isnt the purpose of a fire detection & alarm system to protect the escape routes and raise the alarm in order that occupants may make their escape (should they have to) and not for the purpose you mention David.
If you were to approach your front door and the house was on fire I think even Stevie Wonder would be sus there was a problem without coming to any harm.
maybe not during a hot summers day and he did not hear all the screams and sirens because he was plugged into his i-pod playing Metallica at full blast...
maybe we could develop an app for the I-phone to notify of all domestic fires into a sat nav type software that notifies any person within that postcode to beware of a fire in their establishment...
i could be rich
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Civvy, your fire engineering is entirely flawed. When I leave home to go to the corner shop, that shop IS in fact the chippie. (Dave's fish and chips of heath end farnham, I can recommend them.) So how can I leave my chip pan on? He wraps them up in pages of some book about bonding. My daughters and I have done a lot of that since my divorce. (My son had already bonded as he works for me but we are not equipotential, cos I am the boss so we cant be equi, and his potential will be measured by his performance in the IFE grads this week.)
I am just back from Mr and Mrs Patel's corner shop. I bought 10 lottery tickets, one for my girlfriend, one for my son, one for each of my two daughters and 8 for me. I thought that was fair, because I am 13 times more important than them. I rang each of them to find out what numbers they wanted. They all gave me some, apart from the middle girl, who could not be bothered to think of any-numbers hurt her head- and asked for a lucky dip. Anyhow, I bought a jar of peanut butter for her and me, and we are just tucking into it. Getting the spoon through it is like wading through treacle, so it reminded me that I must see what drivel is being posted on Firenet, and, of course, I wasnt disappointed. I have known Mr and Mrs P since the kids were young, and I love them to bits. Mrs Patel helped me by choosing some numbers for me. She gave my gf a lovely recipe for a ruby murray once, and it was one of the best I have ever had.
Anyhow, how is your life going. I know all aboutthe heating up of surroundings you describe.. Most mornings, my daughter comes in to use the bathroom in my bedroom, especially if her bf is using the main bathroom, and she always says "Dad, you have got this room like an oven" but-hey the cats like it. They are Burmese, so are used to heat. If you tell me how to insert images I can show you a pic of them.
There is a radial path from my house to my good friend Nigel , who lives in the same private lane. He had a chimney fire once, and I heroically led the fire brigade up the lane. He didnt stay put in his bath for long when his wife told him the chimney was on fire I can tell you.
I am sure I was sane and that the voices in my head have always been telling me the right things to do, but I think I have read so much of the recent postings that I have cracked, lost it. There is a care home at the end of our road, but a CSky report on it said that when the inspectors came on a night shift not enough staff spoke good enough english to answer their questions, but hey, in my state, it wont matter , as I wont know if they are talking sense or not. I may need to win the lottery to afford the bill so I hope the voices told me the right numbers or that they passed them onto Mrs Patel.
While I wait for them to come with a van and collect me, I am going to use the electro magnetic resonance transporter to beam me to the study to write another section of the new flats guide (this section on risk assessment). I may be some time. Dont wait up for me.
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Moral of the story dont buy cheap peanut butter. Its made from rancid peanuts and sends you potty. And you can stop taking the insanity pills now Colin. They've worked.
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Civvy, your fire engineering is entirely flawed.
Todd, have you been on the Clevelandfire Sleeping Juice? It is nice to see that your brain has finally given up the ghost, it was only a matter of time.
There is a radial path
Surely you mean path(s)?????? I will await Mr Cockburn's most excellent opinion on this one.
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With all due respect 60mins FR is irrelevant and why should anybody have to turn their back on a fire when they can be pre-warned at the entrance to the block?
In 1948 when this idea seems to have first appeared just about everything was rationed, including it would seem fire alarm systems or the men to fit them. Therefore they had to priorities, so logically buildings of a timber construction that had been converted into flats take priority over concrete and brick, purpose built flats. It didn't mean that any type of block of flats didn't need a fire alarm system, it just meant that some types of blocks of flats need a system more than others.
In 2001 and 2006 this Country was one of the richest in the world, why would we need to ration fire alarm systems?
No I don't believe that any right minded person would believe that I was taking this too far!
Somebody has to say it:
You sir, are an idiot.
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It would appear we have broken Colin Todd (aka my bestest mate in the whole wide world).
By the way it's CQC these days not CSky (or CSCI), my Talisker consuming McChum! And Keep off the peanut butter, I think a 5 week residential equality & diversity course at Fire Service College may be in order for you!
Anyway I'm glad that Mr Gentlemansarea-burn has provoked such lively debate, and I'm sure we would all love to educate him further in the subject of fire safety.
All I'll say is: "Come back Benzerari and BLEVE, all is forgiven"....Midlandfire, News at 10, slightly scared.
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Retty, On a point of accuracy, when the cski report was produced it was cski. And you will never make news at 10. Yow will owways be limi-ed, tow nowse in't da midlands.
I think Mr Cockburn, who I have known for many years, is actually a chief fire officer, moonlighting to eek out the hard living they have. I am sure he was present at the CFOA meeting when it was said that the bruvvers need not worry about a certain determination cos it would be fixed for them. That had the same level of accuracy as his views on most things in the world.
Colin Todd, Firenet News, Rushmoor, slightly inebriated.
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Shut up
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CT
I always knew you were a genius, 1 + 1 +1 +1 =10.......amazing how you do it really ;D
davo
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Further proof of my assertion
http://www.info4fire.com/news-content/full/prosecution-of-fire-alarm-contractor-abandoned-at-crown-court
davo ::)
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I was going to ask people not to get drunk before coming on here, but I didn't expect any of you to drop acid!
i think you have had your fair share in past by the looks of it.
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Mmmm I think a couple of appliances and flames/smoke coming out of my window would give me some indication that there may be a problem but cannot be bothered to calculate time to flashover though
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With all due respect 60mins FR is irrelevant and why should anybody have to turn their back on a fire when they can be pre-warned at the entrance to the block?
In 1948 when this idea seems to have first appeared just about everything was rationed, including it would seem fire alarm systems or the men to fit them. Therefore they had to priorities, so logically buildings of a timber construction that had been converted into flats take priority over concrete and brick, purpose built flats. It didn't mean that any type of block of flats didn't need a fire alarm system, it just meant that some types of blocks of flats need a system more than others.
In 2001 and 2006 this Country was one of the richest in the world, why would we need to ration fire alarm systems?
No I don't believe that any right minded person would believe that I was taking this too far!
Somebody has to say it:
You sir, are an idiot.
I second that! you are.
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I third it.
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Would reckon they would close the door and call the fire service. Think you have been watching too many movies. Fire does not just catch hold, it takes time for flashover so not the case at the early stages of a fire.
Backdraft the sequel or prequel anyone?
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Wow are you the same DW COCKburn the electrician who was started out in industry by his father?
Self taught in the field of British and European fire alarm installation standards......in the words of Python ...say no more ......Loved the peer review of your book at diynot.com.... I can see that the 15 year work experience prior to formal education gives you an insight to matters electrical and how being self taught makes you an authority of British and European standards.
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Come clean, Mr Cockburn, Admit it, you are a chief fire officer or an LFEPA inspecting officer, I can tell from the inane ramblings.
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Come clean, Mr Cockburn, Admit it, you are a chief fire officer or an LFEPA inspecting officer, I can tell from the inane ramblings.
Steady on Colin!!! Thats not just me your refering to!!!
Remember this is a public forum where knowledgeable persons views, particularly of your reputation, are read and trusted.Thats a broad brush you're waving around there, carefull what picture your painting.
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Thank you TMP for your timely reminder.
I have to say you are right though, looking not at Colins posting which is clearly intended as a lighthearted jibe, but at the events of recent weeks as a whole, the forum is in danger of becoming more like a school playground than a source of good advice for the public and for discussion amongst peers.
Please Gentlemen can we remember this and ensure the good name of firenet is upheld.
I particularly thank Wiz for his patient attempt to get to the bottom of the postings on radial circuits, see his posting in the "Question for Mr Todd" thread. This will be the last time we try and understand if there is any substance behind the query before I lock the threads involved.
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Please Gentlemen can we remember this and ensure the good name of firenet is upheld.
Thank you Kurnal. And i too am sure CT's comment was just banter as you say. But, never-the-less, justified a response.
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Reckon the majority of DW Cockburns threads/replies are troll related. The guy is not interested in asking questions with a view to obtaining advice but in fact he is deluded in thinking he can stand on a par with a number of wise individuals in this forum. I would think locking the threads or restricting Trolls access would be for the common good. In saying that he is entertaining in a strange manner
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Reckon the majority of DW Cockburns threads/replies are troll related. The guy is not interested in asking questions with a view to obtaining advice but in fact he is deluded in thinking he can stand on a par with a number of wise individuals in this forum. I would think locking the threads or restricting Trolls access would be for the common good. In saying that he is entertaining in a strange manner
Thats censorship Bleve.
He's baiting people and they are taking the hook, line and sinker.
If you don't want to get involved in the discussion don't rise.
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Nearlythere
Censorship would have locked the thread after a few days, in these cases we have run with them for some time.
Prof is right, there is a danger of people being confused and we try to avoid that, don't we?
Enough is enough, last orders gents ;D
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Thank you TMP for your timely reminder.
I have to say you are right though, looking not at Colins posting which is clearly intended as a lighthearted jibe, but at the events of recent weeks as a whole, the forum is in danger of becoming more like a school playground than a source of good advice for the public and for discussion amongst peers.
Please Gentlemen can we remember this and ensure the good name of firenet is upheld.
I particularly thank Wiz for his patient attempt to get to the bottom of the postings on radial circuits, see his posting in the "Question for Mr Todd" thread. This will be the last time we try and understand if there is any substance behind the query before I lock the threads involved.
you had better lock it then as you will never find any substance behind the mad theories being put to us all.
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As they are of no value they should be deleted rather than locked as they add little to the site and indeed puts people off.
It wouldn't be censorship as it isn't valid opinion but trolling
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Separate section for trolls
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Quantum of trollace ;D
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TM, you are entirely right and I am wrong, for which I apologise unreservedly. I should have known he is not a chief officer because he isnt smarmy to all the right people and clearly has no idea about politics. On the other hand his grammar is too good for a London I/O and he doesnt call everybody guv.
So, let me think.....he rambles on incessantly about the same old load of rubbish, he thinks he is always right.......he never listens to reason and he doesnt know when to keep his mouth shut.....
hmmmmmm let me work on it...........
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GOT IT!!!!!!!!!! A representative of the FBU??????????????????
Is that better?
night night.
C
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Colin remember who your employers are. Quick to take light hearted jibes at the fire service, quicker still to report a member of the fire service whom makes light hearted jibes about you or your company. As for this thread I agree with i think it was what afterburner said, if you dont like the thread you dont have to comment, you can ignore trolls.
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............I particularly thank Wiz for his patient attempt to get to the bottom of the postings on radial circuits, see his posting in the "Question for Mr Todd" thread. This will be the last time we try and understand if there is any substance behind the query before I lock the threads involved.
There has been no answer to my question from Mr Cockburn, so do we bestow Troll status immediately?
The problem is that there is a tangible feeling of something important behind the questions, but we never get straightforward questions (or answers) from Mr C that will allow anyone to answer or opine sensibly.
There is a wealth and knowledge on this forum to allow Mr C to enter into some interesting debates, and so I ask him to finally come forward and for once explain exactly what things within the fire safety legislation/recommendations he has issue with and why (preferably also citing those specific existing recommendations and explain why he feels they wrong)?
If he can't, or is unwilling to do this, then surely we must be left with the assumption that he is just Trolling.
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and.......
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Wiz,
You are using 'radial system sounders' on 'two zone systems'!
I use at least two radial circuits with fire alarm warning devices (which generally includes sounders) on many systems, including many systems with just one fire zone and some systems with up to dozens of fire zones. I am happy to do this based on the recommendations of BS5839-1 2002 + A2 2008. I would prefer a minimum of three such circuits; one with a single sounder adjacent to the fire alarm control and indicating panel and the other two with an approximately equal number of sounders around the remainder of the building and interleaved. I appreciate that my preference exceeds the recommendations of the BS.
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TM, you are entirely right and I am wrong, for which I apologise unreservedly. I should have known he is not a chief officer because he isnt smarmy to all the right people and clearly has no idea about politics. On the other hand his grammar is too good for a London I/O and he doesnt call everybody guv.
cheers guv
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That should be Cheers, (note the comma, which is in lieu of the Latin oh, used just prior to addressing someone, as in, for example, "when will my secondment end, oh wise and omnipotent one") Guv! (note exclamation mark).
Anyhow, the wrigleys are on me, TMP!
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"when will my secondment end, oh wise and omnipotent one") Guv!
Oh! Now thats clever Mr CT! I see what you did there. That is if you meant it?
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I think I did but I am not sure.