blue light driving

[creamegg]

can anyone tell me how a brigade can just give a brigade car to to whole time firefighters that will be use it for community fire saftey, school talks etc. which is fitted with a blue light/sirren,the firefighters carry a retained alerter and will have to turn into station under blue lights when the retained alearter goes off. they will then take their place on the pump if they beat the retained into station. the brigade can just give out a blue light/sirren to that car so why cant the retained have them for their cars. do the retained have to pull over if they see a blue light in their mirror or just carry on to station as they are going to do the same job. if the retained had blue lights/sirren they would get to the station quicker and safter. does any brigade let the retained use blue lights/siren on their cars?

[AnthonyB]

Ah - but will the firefighters using the car be required to have EFAD?
You can't just chuck someone in a vehicle with blues & twos and expect them to safely use it (it may be currently legal, but not good for liability)

Brigades cannot afford to send every retaineed firefighter on EFAS or DDSA-CC equivalent training.

Plus having several people bluing from several different directions at once towards the station is going to cause an accident.

Retained stations and their recruiting area are supposed to account for distance to station and traffic.

If it's taking too long to get to station then either:
a) you need to recruit staff living/working closer to the station; or
b) reassess the risk to the area and if high enough to justify a staffed station (& assoc costs) do it, if low risk then the delay isn't as important; or
c) move the station if you cannot get the people

The dedication of a resource to community safety in itself good as if successful it will through education reduce domestic fires or at least the number with "persons reported" (detectors, escape plans, prevention) so it shouldn't matter as much if you are delayed to the call as it is more likely then to be car/bin on fire, industrial or domestic property only at risk

[creamegg]

the station involved has just gone from full time manning on 0900 till 1700 mon to fri and is now fully retained. the authority has said that they will keep 2 personnel on the books may be for 12 months. i would have thought that you would have to have been blue light trained for the car. the station has been covered by the retained for a good number of years during the day when their has not been enough full time on. the public have complained that its gone fully retained but its the retained that have been covering it for most of the time

[AnthonyB]

Sounds like cutbacks are already biting.
Any person driving a blue light vehicle who may be expected to have to use them should receive training, but unfortunately it's not (yet) a legal requirement.

[Guest]

so going by your comments about not being a legal requirement to be trained in using blue lights.  Does this mean that a retained firey could fit blue lights to his own car and use them to proceed to a station?

[AnthonyB]

If they do that they would be driving without insurance - as blue lights are an alteration to the vehicle and the usage isn't strictly SDP.

Also the vehicle may fall foul of the vehicle lighting regs as it is not strictly an emergency vehicle defined as "A motor vehicle of any of the following descriptions-
(a)  a vehicle used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes;"

although you could argue that it is fire brigade purposes, there is case law where ambulance personnel used blues to collect an ambulance and were fined and pointed.

and in the unlikely event you get away with it being "fire brigade purposes" then you'd better be using magnetic lightbars because if you permanently mount them the second you use the car to go to the shops,  or to your normal employment, etc you are commiting an offence as they are not fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes - its the fitting that is the offence, even if you never switch them on

It's a notoriously grey area for which you must have a lot of spare cash for legal fees if you get caught up in it.

[Guest]

lol i dont think ill bother then

[Guest]

In my brigade area the traffic police followed a retained firefighter to the station as he was driving to fast and dangerous, he had a blue light fitted to the visor. they gave him a warning and told him under no circumstances was he allowed to use blue lights. He was informed if they caught him again they would press charges.

[Guest]

How does my ADO get away with using a magnetic light bar on his own car to proceed to incidents?

[AnthonyB]

Using the "fire brigade purposes" exemptions in the lighting regs and RT Act.

[Guest]

In some certain remote areas retained personnel are authorised to use blue lights where it is just impossible to get to the station within 3 minutes.

Use of the blue lights is normally sanctioned by the local Police Superintendant or in some cases the area Traffic Commissioner (DVLA)

They for instance normally approve agencies such as St John Ambulances to use blue lights.

You dont need any training to use a vehicle with blue lights however I understand that the SUperintendant will impose that

a) Untrained personell can only exceed speed limit by 10mph
b) vehicles may not overtake - driver can only proceed when drivers in front have pulled over or travelling at a suffiecitly low speed to allow a safe take over maneouvre.
c) In some cases the Superintendant may insist the drivers have done atleast an advanced driving course

The police can not stop any vehicles using blue lights even if they suspect they are suing those blue lights illegally. Instead  they have to either take down the registration number and if necessary follow it to ensure they are being used legitimtaley.

A police officer once stopped a local Search and Rescue team travelling in their landrover ambulance who were using blue lights to get a casualty to hospital. As a result the casualty nearly died. There was uproar that the police had stopped the. Again the police either have to follow the anyone they suspect is using blue lights illegally to see where they go (in the case of search and rescue if theyd had follwed them they would have ended up at the hospital and would have seen the casualty being rushed into A & E)
 or take down the registration number , trace the vehicle and then approach the owner afterwards to determine why theyu were being used.

An intresting point to mention here also is that a police officer might actually the law if he stopped a retained firefighter using blue lights legally or indeed illegally. The reason being that the police would be obstructing a firefighter from undertaking his / her duties which is an offence under the fire service act 1947

Again if they thought that the fire fighter was using blue light illegally they would have to approach him when NOT responding to an emergency

Its a very grey area.

[Guest]

is this just in England or does it apply in scotland as well?  Which brigades do this?

[Guest]

As far as im aware this applies in the whole of the UK but scotland might be different. You'd need to contact your local police

[Guest]

I'm an Auxillary Coastguard.

We are allowed to use blue lights when racing to our station.

I don't see why Fire fighters can't do the same.

Picking up on the point of Police stopping blue light drivers. I was once stopped when I was using my blue light. We had just been given permission to use them on our private vehicles, and I don't think word hadn't got out to the officers on the beat so to speak.

The copper cthat stopped me couldn't have been older than 23 and he kept calling me "sonny" cheeky little brat!. Top and tail of the story was that I gave him blue murder for stopping me, got back into my car and rushed off to answer the call.

He pursued me to the station and then finally arrested me for failing to stop. I was taken to the police station where the young constable got a right ear bending off his Sergeant when they realised I was genuine and permitted to use blues and twos.

I think he was also disciplined although I stressed I didn't think it was fair that he did get repremanded so strongly.

So no the police cant stop any vehicle using a blue light is the answer

[Guest]

Forgot to mention that the Police Officer who stopped me could potentially have been dismissed from the force because he caused an offence by stopping me from undertaking my duties. Thankfully common sense prevailed afteral he didnt stop me to be akward.