Inadequate Fire Risk Assessments - Who's to Blame?

[Graeme]

Have to disagree with you on that Wiz.

Every pub in the highlands is run by a Cockney it seems and all the tour guides are English..

Regards Scots being treated the same...Ever been on a night out in Kendal?

[Davo]

Graeme

Do tell, I am in Kendal early October


davo

[Hi Tower]

Getting back to the point guys!

Recently I have lost work from block management agents due to price - I inform them that my overheads are a considering factor - for example CPD, PI & PL insurance, memberships to various organisations.  The response I got back was "We're not interested in your qualifications and experience we just want a cheap fire risk assessment." 

At this point I usually go into detail about the value of being registered with the IFE and how they can use this accreditation as part of their due diligence process, but you can see the eyes glaze over and their interest dull.

I personally think that not enough is being done by the government to promote the value of such accreditation and when I say government I mean the FRA.  I know that referrals are made by FSO's (albeit on the quiet) for their ex-colleagues to be used - who haven't updated their knowledge since the day they left the brigade, and as for the register my own local authority didn't even know about the register until I informed them of it - amazing (maybe not!!).  I find that when I am marketing saying that I was a fire fighter grabs the attention of far more out there than any accreditation.  Albeit that I was retained and had never been involved in fire safety doesn't figure to most punters.  Oh I forgot - I did do home fire safety visits - but I was never given any training in doing them, never shown what MOE should be like within a dwelling (flat or house) but off we went telling all what to do - stick up a smoke alarm that will do it!  Still I here social workers are being trained to do home fire safety visits now - I'm thinking of taking up rocket science - I'm sure I'll get the jist after a day or two.

Rant over - but until the goverment (FRA) take responsibility for promoting fire safety law and those who can do it properly it will just be a mockery as it is now.

[kurnal]

I couldn't agree more HT. The Government is wanting the Industry to manage itself and improve competence standards but it will have little effect without an awareness campaign for RPs and publicity.

I have heard the FRACS manager suggest that we should market competence but the vast majrity of the market is entirely cost driven. As Nearlythere said recently many risk assessments are cheap because they aren't very good. And apart from blue chip companies almost nobody  has heard of FRACS, IFSM, IFPO or IFE nor do they want to. Never mind this bull about quality,  cost is all they want to know.

Been in the North East today picking up the pieces for a care home who had appointed a cowboy to carry out their risk assessment. The Fire Service rejected it out of hand as not suitable or sufficient and served an enforcemetn notice on the RP to prrovide a suitable and sufficient risk assessment. Fair enough as the assessment only covered 5% of the fire safety issues,  the company had simply used the FRA as a tool to sell more fire extinguishers. Scandalous.  

I spoke to the Fire Officer to ask what acion they were taking aginst the company but they were not interested.  They said if the report was not S&S this time they would take the RP to court though.

The cowboys fee was about 2/3 of mine so they won on price, but it was wasted money and they were lumbered with six more extinguishers they did not need.

Unless fire services sit up and take notice and do their bit things will not improve.

[AnthonyB]

More and more brigades are at last serving notices for inadequate FRAs...it seemed to me when the RRO came in they would accept any old tickbox or side of A4 and focus purely on the physical general fire precautions.

We are seeing more work as a result and clients who followed the cheaper route including in house attempts are suddenly seeing the error of their ways.

Nottinghamshire (or at least certain officers) are in a crusade about this at the moment in particular, with several others starting to gun for the FRAs. None yet, other than Notts in the famous case, have gone for the assessors yet, just the RP, however this seems to be based on the life risk at the time of enforcement (as well as the use or not of other powers, several have said in relation to going for contractors/assessors, using 32(10) & other articles that they won't go to the hassle involved in these unless there was a real 7 imminent risk to life associated with it or indeed a fire had already occurred)

[Hi Tower]

I recently enquired with my local brigade about how many prosecutions they had successfully made since Oct 2006.  I was expecting a considerable list and was astonished when they said only 7.  An average of 1.4 a year.  So on that basis is the average person seeing that as a concern - I suggest not.  In addition to that if the RP doesn't do their fire risk assessment and they get found out the enforcement notice that follows provides a choice (where possible) between different ways of remedying the contravention(s) - see FSO Guidance Note. 1: Enforcement, Para 141.  So I suggest the best way to save money and time in this respect is don't do an FRA, wait for the FA to come round (if they ever do) and then at that time plead innocence, wait for their recommendations and then implement them at that time.  I'm waiting for the first prosecution of the fire service on the fire service for inadequate recommendations - do you think that will ever happen - hmmmmmm.  When I review new building plans that have been reviewed by the authorities with respect to App. Doc B. the things that get missed are shocking - what repurcussions are there!!  One rule for one yada yada yada.

[CivvyFSO]

So I suggest the best way to save money and time in this respect is don't do an FRA, wait for the FA to come round (if they ever do) and then at that time plead innocence, wait for their recommendations and then implement them at that time.

You can't plead innocence regarding not having a risk assessment. You MUST do a fire risk assessment. We would simply enforce a fire risk assessment if this was the case. The RP also runs the risk of not spotting potentially serious problems, which could then easily lead to a prosecution, and the complete lack of a fire risk assessment will factor heavily in any such prosecution.

i.e. We turn up and find lack of an alarm, lack of EL, blocked means of escape, and no risk assessment. We would be taking pictures of the MOE issues, and getting some interim measures in place to make it relatively safe in the meantime. Then we give the premises a score of how we found it, and with poor MOE, no alarm etc, it is probably going to score high enough to warrant looking at a prosecution. We would serve an enforcement notice for a fire risk assessment, and probably turn the findings of that notice into either an action plan or another enforcement notice. If the risk assessment is not suitable and sufficient, then you haven't complied with the notice and would potentially get prosecuted for that too.

[Hi Tower]

[quoteYou can't plead innocence regarding not having a risk assessment. You MUST do a fire risk assessment][/quote]  but Civvy with a prosecution rate of 1.4 a year I think that many people will say what's the point.  Yes they could have a fire and yes then be prosecuted but that's the standard 'horse has bolted' approach.  I think that many out there firstly don't think they'll have a fire (it won't happen to me) and they don't think theres a realistic chance of being prosecuted for not having done an FRA either.  The stats show this.
Your action plan will cover the points they need to undertake - just copy and paste to their own headed paper - hey presto a free FRA.

[CivvyFSO]

No, the action plan will only come out of the risk assessment which will be done by someone else. Other Fire Authorities may do this different, but we stopped for this exact reason.

And, they do not need to have a fire to be prosecuted.

[AnthonyB]

[quoteYou can't plead innocence regarding not having a risk assessment. You MUST do a fire risk assessment]

  but Civvy with a prosecution rate of 1.4 a year I think that many people will say what's the point.  Yes they could have a fire and yes then be prosecuted but that's the standard 'horse has bolted' approach.  I think that many out there firstly don't think they'll have a fire (it won't happen to me) and they don't think theres a realistic chance of being prosecuted for not having done an FRA either.  The stats show this.
Your action plan will cover the points they need to undertake - just copy and paste to their own headed paper - hey presto a free FRA.


[/quote]


You would be stuffed in Nottinghamshire - they don't give you any solutions or detail of the faults in notices - they just quote the relevant article of the RRO that is breached.

You then have to play a little game of 'guess the answer' firing off proposed solutions (if it's not what they want you just get a simple 'no' off them) until you get a 'yes' off them.

[Hi Tower]

You would be stuffed in Nottinghamshire - they don't give you any solutions or detail of the faults in notices - they just quote the relevant article of the RRO that is breached.

It sounds like a lack of clarity throughout the country - I'm not sure what is happening in the background to clear up these differences - is the home office giving guidance to the authorities as a whole?

[nearlythere]

I think that unless there is some form of compulsary penalty for not carrying out a suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment thats how the system will work. As HT says why not wait until the F&R Service carry out an audit and provide an action plan. When done the place will be perfect and money only spent on absolutely must do measures.
Afterall, the risk of a fire is pretty unlikely.

[Tom Sutton]

You would be stuffed in Nottinghamshire - they don't give you any solutions or detail of the faults in notices - they just quote the relevant article of the RRO that is breached.

You then have to play a little game of 'guess the answer' firing off proposed solutions (if it's not what they want you just get a simple 'no' off them) until you get a 'yes' off them.

What happened to the Enforcement Concordat or has that been consigned to the rubbish bin.

[Midland Retty]

Intresting debate. I have a fantastic idea.

Scrap fire risk assessment and instead have a system where the local fire officer pops out and tells you what you need to do. Once you have done the work you get a certificate but if you dont do the work you get prosecuted.

...hang on a minute....  

[nearlythere]

Intresting debate. I have a fantastic idea.

Scrap fire risk assessment and instead have a system instead where the local fire officer pops out and tells you what you need to do. Once you have done the work you get a certificate but if you dont do the work you get prosecuted.

...hang on a minute.... 

Your new idea will only happen as and when disasters occur. By 40 years we will have a full fire certification process instead of a FRA process.
But as you say "...hang on a minute..."