third party certification for fire risk assessors - will it take off?

[Clevelandfire 3]

yeah i like the sound of dotty day. lets be sure to make that happen. i could make a killing selling dotty wigs made fom cotton wool

[colin todd]

Kel, On a point of accuracy, the correct name is the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, and Piggers is right, they have never heard of you North of the Border, but the idea of them burning your effigy appeals to me, a bit like the Wicker Man made of straw and of no substance, and a cult B movie with an audience of 5.

On a further point of accuracy, I don't dismiss everyone else, just television salesmen.

[Kelsall]

Narcissism demonstrated most clinically Colin. Well done!

On a point of accuracy
The Wicker Man is generally well-regarded by critics. Film magazine Cinefantastique described it as "The Citizen Kane of horror movies", and during 2004 the magazine Total Film named The Wicker Man the sixth greatest British film of all time. It also won the 1978 Saturn Award for Best Horror Film

I like your inference. 

You as Lord Summerisle; I can see you have the same characteristics as that pagan Laird of the isle.
I always knew you were a Cult 

[colin todd]

Sadly, Kel you are not old enough to remember the release of the Wicker Man. I saw it first time round. It was a B movie with something good to watch as the main film. I thought it was rather banal and boring, but enjoyed the main film.  I still see some resemblance. Also, the director of the film destroyed the original negatives saying that it was rubbish. I hope the tv shop directors never think the same of you.

[Kelsall]

I see what you're saying here; as long as it's written by you, adapted for film by you, directed by you, staring you, produced by you, edited by you and released by you, it is just brilliant.  Yawn

I think it was Winston Churchill who said 'you will never get where you are going if you stop to throw stones at every barking dog'.  

But honestly it's so much fun throwing stones at you when you bark, plus it is so hard to miss that big old head of yours.  

Kurnal please do feel free to block this thread as once again Colin's 'chelp'  means this has nothing to do with what it started with and is now all about Colin's affliction! And if he continues to refuse to get treatment for his narcissism I dare say we will be back at this sooner or later.  

[colin todd]

Well back on piste, BAFE SP 205 is taking off rather well I think. Must be the quality of the salesmen and the high standing of the CBs who operate the scheme.  They are to be congratulated.

[Kelsall]

Well back on piste, BAFE SP 205 is taking off rather well I think. Must be the quality of the salesmen and the high standing of the CBs who operate the scheme.  They are to be congratulated.

I agree with Colin on the quote above, it is good to have certificated companies no matter what scheme they are in; it adds support to the wide spread backing of third party certification across the active and passive sectors. Third party certification isn't the complete answer but it is a starting point for the due diligence process. Lots more education and guidance is still needed perhaps those CBs who are offering SP 205 can start to drive the demand for certification from the end clients too. The only way to make this a success across the industry is by making it commercially attractive to have quality assurance certification and to have a unified push from those offering certification. Moving forward I hope to get the fire sector CBs together to form a body that the sector can work with when developing new schemes. For example there is a push to develop a fire safety management competence document. It might be that the sector feels that a competent person's scheme may be appropriate for fire safety managers. If that is the case this CB fire sector body could be approached to develop a single level of scheme that could be adopted and operated by those CBs who wish to add it to their scope.  

[colin todd]

I agree with Kelsall when he agrees with me, cos on those occasions he is dead right.

[Tom W]

[mevans421]

I have been BAFE SP205-1 accredited for nearly 18 months and IFE accredited for three years.  Soon I am due to be reaccredited for the BAFE SP205-1 scheme, however, the following points are making me reconsider and my present opinion is that the scheme does not have a satisfactory cost to benefit return to support its financial subscriptions and managerial burden.  I would however, say that by being part of it has most certainly brought my process documentation and procedures to a higher standard than from before I had it.

• I have only had one enquirer in 18 months who has requested third party certification
• The cost of the SP205-1 scheme is high and requires a full day of my time out for auditing etc.

• I am not in favour of companies that sell fire safety products also supplying fire risk assessments and the BAFE scheme actively promotes this.
• I have noticed that several BAFE accredited companies for fire alarms, fire extinguishers are carrying out fire risk assessments by unqualified and/or non third party certificated fire risk assessors.  This IMO makes a mockery of the principles of third party accreditation yet BAFE do not seem to be making much of it.

• The level of qualification required to get onto the scheme is almost negligible, e.g. I know of one company that their lead risk assessor has undertaken a one week FRA course and has several years in the fire industry experience only.  What fire industry experience means is unknown, but I believe it is the installation of fire extinguishers and fire alarms only and hardly constitutes the necessary knowledge requirements of building design etc.

I strongly believe in the third party accreditation process but some organisations are doing it better than others.

P.S. Until the enforcers start enforcing (i.e. prosecuting FRA's when appropriate), third party accreditation will remain a nice to have and nothing more!!

[kurnal]

Mevans since you raise it, which  is the best scheme in your view? There are three ukas accredited company schemes as far as I am aware -Warrington, sp205 and IFC
There are two ukas accredited competent person schemes as far as I am aware -FRACS/IFSM NFRAR, and ROSP. Then there are the risk assessor registers operated by IFE, IFPO and the old IFSM register that is shortly to die. Finally the IOSH list. Have I missed anyone? I agree with you that using an sp205 company does not guarantee that the fire risk assessment will be technically competent. I have seen three examples this year that I would not put my name to and one with several very significant omissions and errors.

[mevans421]

Kurnal

without an in depth analysis and having only been party to two schemes I think both have merit and of the two the BAFE scheme is more encompassing of all business requirements but as I have said I predominantly do not like the values being upheld by many BAFE fire alarm, extinguisher companies.

I think that in due course I will gravitate to see what the Warrington scheme offers, but I am more interested in that from a competency point of view than any other matter.

[colin todd]

BAFE ROOLS OK

[nearlythere]

BAFE ROOLS OK

I blaim the edumakation sistum.

[kurnal]

NT  based on the evidence before us, I take it that you refer to the inadeqacy of the Scottish education system.