Beds, beds, beds!

[Rich]

Just wondering who has still got beds on stations (and allowed to use them!) or if not what alternatives have been given - HRP's?  

Has anyone had beds taken away and kept the same shift pattern ie 15 hour nights?  And if so what are you expected to do in those wee small hours?

Just clinging on to our beds at the moment, but have been told to kiss them goodbye within 12 months.

Does anyone who currently uses beds in the fire service think getting rid of them is a good idea?

[jasper]

I think it is a good idea as you guys are paid for 2 days 2 nights 4 off - just my 2 pence worth

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

I think it is a good idea as you guys are paid for 2 days 2 nights 4 off - just my 2 pence worth

And your point is?

I'd just like to clarify that it's 2 days, 2 nights and 3 days off..... the second night shift runs past midnight therefore takes up most of a day.

Beds are allowed purely due to the length of the shift. Industry does not work a 14 or 15 hour night shift so beds are provided for rest purposes.

Even if crews are resting, once a call is received, the appliance(s) must be leaving the station within 60 seconds.

I personally don't think that members of the public would appreciate us checking hydrants at 3 in the morning, do you? I know I wouldn't be very happy!!

Beds will go, but this will be achieved by reducing the hours worked on nights to fall in line with the European Worktime Directive....... that means 12 hour shifts as there has to be a minimum of 11 hours rest between nights.

[jasper]

My point is that I used to be a RAF firefighter and we were paid for 24 on 24 off, therefore we worked the nights no slept them having enough rest and time to do another full time job.
I have a lot of friends in the fire service and many of them on quiet stations only work 2 days a week, pop in for 2 nights sleep then back to the other job.
U dont find nurses looking for a spare bed at night shift for a kip do you?

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

Well jasper, as one that was married to a nurse for several years, don't believe all you hear regarding them not sleeping on nights.

[jasper]

Try working in an understaffed area in Lancashire

[AnthonyB]

Ambulance crews work nights which can spill over to 13, 14 hrs and are often lucky to see a station let alone sleep.

Be thankful you don't have the standby point system where when not on a job you are parked at the side of the road so you can cover the next area likely to get a call within the required response time.

I don't think the police have beds for nights either (unless they kip in an empty cell!)

[Spin]

Beds have gone in Manchester Rich; and we still work 15 hour nights on the 2-2-3 system. The alternative that has been provided is a Calcot recliner.

http://www.jamesspencer.co.uk/products/calcot11_0.htm

We are allowed to 'rest' on the chairs, but anyone found sleeping will be disciplined!

[Chris Houston]

Industry does not work a 14 or 15 hour night shift

Oh yeah?

[kurnal]

This could well develop into one of those "You are lucky" comedy sketches.

Personally I just regret that the move to get rid of the beds has been driven by motives of  jealousy and to settle political scores rather than by a logical analysis of the issues involved.

Over a period of 15 years in the 1960s and 70s the weekly hours worked by firefighters fell from an 84 hour week (average) to a 42 hour week but due to a lack of imagination by employers and the strength of the union the shift pattern remained. Whilst it is absolutely essential to sleep on nights  if you work an 84 hour week, on a 42 hour week it is hard to justify spending 18 of those hours being paid to sleep (on some quiet stations).  

In the old days the other characteristic of the job was very low wages making it essential to supplement your income by doing part time work so the two went hand in hand - low rate of pay but allowed to sleep.

The beds have been under scrutiny for many years but the problem is finding meaningful work for crews to do in the early hours. If theres nothing crews can usefully do why not let them sleep?
What do the Public want- they want a to notch level of service on call 24 hrs a day. The cost of the service to the ratepayer is linked to the speed of response time - if a full time service is required the cost of providing this  service is the same whether crews are awake or asleep.
Any arguments over improved efficiency by getting rid of beds are totally bogus unless meaningful work is being achieved instead of sleep.

Nurses have meaningful work to do during every night shift, as do factory workers etc. But theres a whole range of other jobs - the safety net jobs such as fighter pilots, some doctors, coastguards and firefighters where I see nothing wrong in allowing meaningful rest between callouts.

[RLFACTOR]

Firstly even by removing beds from stations it will not stop firefighters sleeping "old habits die hard"
 I currently work at a station with no-beds and we all provide for ourselve ie camp beds etc...

 I can see how some poeple get disgruntled that firefighters sleep on nights whilst people in other jobs cannot,
However and what im about to say applies to more profesions than the fire service!

 Because of the nature of the work that fire fighters do it is "sometimes" necessary to enter into potentially dangerous situations, now a normal persons body clock is programmed to sleep at night time and 2 nightimes is not enough to fully convert this body clock so by staying awake people will tire more quickly, and when people are tired they lose concentration which can be harmful to themselves and others...

My point is for a person to wake in the morning as their body clock dictates then go to work on a night shift become tired because they havent slept and attend an incident at lets say 0500, people will be less focused more prone to make mistakes and less physically able, this not only endangers yourself but your work collegues and members of the public around you...

So to conclude, rest or sleep is essential to maintain "as much as possible" the physical and mental requirements needed to deal with a variety of emergency situations so that they can meet their objectives whilst ensuring work is undertaken safely.

Whilst this is something i have concluded myself, and i am not medically qualified to say that everything i have stated is bonified a-class true im sure alot of you will agree with me...

 So do i think fire fighters should be provided with bed's and able to sleep on nights? YES as in my opinion it is essential in order to be physically and mentally prepeared to provide the public with the 1st class service they deserve.

 Do i think other emergency service personnel should be provided with beds and able to sleep? if possible YES because they to attend dangerous situations where a high level of concentration and physical capibillity is required...

[messy]

It's the same old argument. Greeneyes from those outside the fire service and blinkered eyes from those within.

Kurnal's post has been the most balanced here so far. I agree that as a ratepayer, I want an efficient well trained/equipped fire service. If that means that the beds have to go, then so be it.

But I cannot see for the life of me, what work FFs can reguarly perform between say, 23:00 and 06:00, which would improve efficiency or save money.

The majority of wholetime fire stations are in built up areas. Some are so near neighbouring homes, even in station activities may disturb them.

Since the scandal of 'Chippolatagate' broke, I am even more incensed that 2 Jags seems to have waged wars on fire service beds, whilst simultaneously it appears he was spending much of his working time in one !!!!

[Edward]

here in malta beds remain, fire service runs a 24 hour "watch", then u get the next day as a "rest" and the day after as "off", so you get 24 hours duty and 48 hours off, however... a station only has 4 firemen (inc. station officer) and only 3 stations here. on your 24 hours rest you are not meant to be called in, on your 24 hours off you may be called in if there is a big fire.

bed remain in our stations, so far they wont leave, however they're rarely used. and i disagree they should be removed from british stations, if a fireman has had a tough time, he needs to rest, where will he be doin that?

ok some people say that industry dont work 14 to 15 hours, and others challenge that and say that they do... fair enough... but the stress a fireman is put through on a call is by far much higher then most people working in industries. that is what should be considered, the stress they got in comparision to the long shifts. unfair in my opinion to remove the beds

[Mike Buckley]

I suppose it boils down to what you want the firefighters for. If you want firefighters as emergency workers on immediate call 24/7, then you are going to need them in the station overnight. Unless there is productive work they can do between 2300 and 0600 they may as well sleep, they are on call and immediately available. Having been in charge of a station nothing fills me with more dread than a group of bored firefighters at 0300. If you want the firefighters to predominately work and have the emergency work as a secondary role then look at the day manning system.

I suppose it is the usual double standards that when there is no emergency it's who are you? and when the brown smelly stuff hits the fan it's where the **** were you?

[Chris Houston]

Just as a suggestion, from someone with little knowledge of the workings of a fire station:

Could tasks like planned maintenace of equipment, training, and review of fire safety risk assessments not be done easily at night time?