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THE REGULATORY REFORM (FIRE SAFETY) ORDER 2005 => Guides and Legislation Links => Topic started by: Andy Cole on March 09, 2007, 09:04:43 PM
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I know that anyone who is competent can carry out a Fire Risk Assesment and there has to be a nominated responsible person.
I understand that.... I think!
Who can advise on on Fire risk assesments?
Can I go into a shop (for example) and help the owner of the shop by showing them how to carry out a risk assesment or even do it for them?
This may well present itself as a stupid question but I just wanted to be absolutley clear!!
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The law is not clear on this matter. Fire Safety Risk Assessors are not government approved and in theory anyone can carry them out. I'd point people towards the IFE's scheme, but there are nowhere near enought IFE approved people.
Frankly, I think the governemnt can't even manage to ensure there are fire safety risk assessments, nevermind worrying about who carries them out.
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I dont think its quite like that Andy. I believe it works like this but wuld be interested to hear other views:
For every place that is subject to the fire safety order there will be a responsible person who will, nominated or not, be responsible in Law to ensure that basic fire precautions are taken.
The responsible person has to carry out a risk assessment - there is nothing to say he has to be competent in doing this. If there are 5 or more emploees, if there is a licence in force or an alterations notice in place the significant findings of the risk assessment must be recorded.
The responsible person may seek advice on how to carry out a risk assessment and where he has someone amongst his staff who is competent to carry it out he should (not must) choose to use them rather than someone from outside his employment.
If he chooses to look outside and seek that advice and assistance from Andy thats fine. But it is down to the responsible person to satisfy himself that Andy is competent to give this advice (by asking for evidence of qualification, training and experience).
It is down to the responsible person to decide whether to accept and act on Andy's advice.
The nub I guess of your question is that the entire responsibility under the FSO sits with the Responsible person. And not with Andy.
But the Fire Safety Order only covers the issues relating to basic fire precautions and Article 48(??) disapplies the health and Safety at work Act in respect of basic fire precautions.
The H&S AWA is still there though as an umbrella protecting everything outside the definition of basic fire precautions.
If Andy is in the business of giving fire safety advice and does not take reasonable care in the advice he gives, and if in consequence someone is hurt or injured then Andy will be in the dock along side the responsible person, under sections 2 and 3 of the H&SAWA and the management of health and safety at work regulations 1999. In addition the responsible person may file a civil claim against Andy for damages.
For example if Andy, as a paid consultant, recommends padlocks be fitted to a fire exit door and the RP takes this advice the RP is held responsible under the RRO for failure to provide basic fire precautions and failure to ensure he has appointed a competent adviser. But Andy, who is appointed to give advice on the RRO is working under the umbrella of under section 2, 3, 6 and 8 of H&SAWA and if something goes wrong will be held to account under this legislation.
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Yes I agree with Kurnal and dont forget that due to Article 32(10) if Andy gave such poor advice that resulted in an offence being committed he could be the one prosecuted.
"(10) Where the commission by any person of an offence under this Order, is due to the act or
default of some other person, that other person is guilty of the offence, and a person may be
charged with and convicted of the offence by virtue of this paragraph whether or not proceedings
are taken against the first-mentioned person."
I think it also likely that if that was the case the resposible person would pursue a civil case against Andy. I am looking forward to that happening and it being widely publicised in order to discourage the growing band of "consultants" out there who dont know s**t from clay. Not meaning you of course Andy!
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So in theory I can go into a shop and advice them so long as I know what I'm talking about and I make it clear that it is up to the responsible person to be satisfied that I am sufficently qualified to do so and also up to the responsible person as to whether or not they choose to act upon the advice I give.
It would also be a good idea for me to keep a note of the advice I have given with a signature confirming that I gave the advice, from the responsible person.
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Yes Andy.
The signature will only serve as a receipt of the advice- not necessarily confirming their understanding of the advice.
Many people are giving advice in the way you describe, some without the benefit of professional indemnity insurance. I would urge anyone in this position to take out insurance- the risk of not doing so could cost them everything they own. It is not horrendously expensive but the companies will want to see evidence of competence- £1million cover can be purchased for under £1000 per year. In this compensation culture clients seem very friendly while the going is good- as soon as something goes awry they are straight to the solicitors.
Some others are enforcing fire safety as the day job and carrying out risk assessments as a part time fiddle. Personally I have a problem with that in terms of conflict of interest- especially those who do it in their own area.
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So in my position....
I have been asked by a couple of local small shopkeepers (I mean small shops not small people!) to give them a hand with their fire risk assesments in exchange for a small fee for my time (probably about £50 each??), they have asked me because as a local firefighter and shop worker myself I obviously have some idea of what to do, to take out insurance for the sake of what will probably be about £250 worth of work is going to defeat the point and make it completley unworthwhile!
So what should I do?... the way I see it is I have two options...
1) Risk it.. take the chance that they won't sue the arse off me if the shop burns down (which it would be even less likely to do with one of the firefighters having a bit of 'inside knowledge')
2) Advise them to seek 'professional' advice from a 'proper' consultant (which a couple have already indicated to me wouldn't happen because of the cost implications mainly.. we aren't taliking about woolworths and the like more about the corner shop sort of set up!)
If I were to take option 2 my other concern is that they would go ahead and carry out the assesment themselves anyway, which if they've already approached me for advice would suggest to me that they aren't competent to do it, this could result in risks being taken.. I know you could argue that really it isn't my problem but the responsible person should have got professional advice if they were unsure but how good am I going to feel knowing that I said I wouldn't do it and a week later someone dies as a result of a fire door being padlocked or blocked??
I hope you see my problem, if you guys come back and say to me it's a no no without the insurance then I'll appreciate your advice and follow option 2 assured that I am making the right choice!!
Thanks in anticipation once again for your valued advice and opinions!!
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Some might say that there is a conflict of interests if the same people who work for the enforcement authority who are responsible for ensuring that fire safety risk assessments are carried out also sells services to carry out such a service.
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Andy
If you are being asked to give the advice because the shopkeeper knows you work for the fire service then this brings some liability on the fire authority and you should perhaps refer them to the fire safety department.
Its up to the shopkeeper to know the basics of fire safety law and not to lock exit doors and not something any individual firefighter is in a position to change.
Its also up to the fire authority- not individual firefighters to worry about how they will enforce fire safety and make sure shops in their area will not lock fire exit doors.
If the shopkeeper is asking you because he knows you work for the fire service and will on the side give him some advice on the cheap as a private individual then thats a private and personal decision and entirely up to you.
Yes of course like in any field you can undercut professional consultants because you will not have insurance, accountants, staff, offices, CPD, training, corporation tax, VAT and 1001 other business overheads to find. And people always want a bargain and many are prepared to turn to the grey economy in all walks of life to do this.
The way it was supposed to work is that the guidance documents should contain sufficient information for the responsible person to carry out their own risk assessment in smaller premises. If they need advice they can ask the fire service who will be pleased to help with specific queries. If they still are unsure they should consider seeking assistance from a competent person, either from amongst their staff, from within their professional or trade organisation or a fire consultant. Fire consultants are often happy to offer free advice too-we are not all on the make all the time!
If on the other hand you are aware of a group of local businesses struggling to understand and deal with the law, why not suggest the fire safety department put on a free seminar and open evening for them at the fire station, talk them through the basics, even produce and give out a template for a simple fire risk assessment, then go and sample the standards afterwards on a goodwill basis? As a private consultant wishing to support small business in my area this is something I am doing regularly in my area, usually free of charge, and providing suitable risk assessment templates for them to fill in. Putting one on next week for 100 holiday cottage owners - why cant the fire service do this too?
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Andy
If you are being asked to give the advice because the shopkeeper knows you work for the fire service then this brings some liability on the fire authority and you should perhaps refer them to the fire safety department.
Its up to the shopkeeper to know the basics of fire safety law and not to lock exit doors and not something any individual firefighter is in a position to change.
Its also up to the fire authority- not individual firefighters to worry about how they will enforce fire safety and make sure shops in their area will not lock fire exit doors.
If the shopkeeper is asking you because he knows you work for the fire service and will on the side give him some advice on the cheap as a private individual then thats a private and personal decision and entirely up to you.
Yes of course like in any field you can undercut professional consultants because you will not have insurance, accountants, staff, offices, CPD, training, corporation tax, VAT and 1001 other business overheads to find. And people always want a bargain and many are prepared to turn to the grey economy in all walks of life to do this.
The way it was supposed to work is that the guidance documents should contain sufficient information for the responsible person to carry out their own risk assessment in smaller premises. If they need advice they can ask the fire service who will be pleased to help with specific queries. If they still are unsure they should consider seeking assistance from a competent person, either from amongst their staff, from within their professional or trade organisation or a fire consultant. Fire consultants are often happy to offer free advice too-we are not all on the make all the time!
If on the other hand you are aware of a group of local businesses struggling to understand and deal with the law, why not suggest the fire safety department put on a free seminar and open evening for them at the fire station, talk them through the basics, even produce and give out a template for a simple fire risk assessment, then go and sample the standards afterwards on a goodwill basis? As a private consultant wishing to support small business in my area this is something I am doing regularly in my area, usually free of charge, and providing suitable risk assessment templates for them to fill in. Putting one on next week for 100 holiday cottage owners - why cant the fire service do this too?
Free seminars?! actually we have been doing this for years-all those who have been given notice of audit are invited,plus presentations to business groups-unfortunately many choose not to turn up.As you would expect, those that do tend to fare better in their audits.
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Pip
And all others who have responded to this topic:
a] decidly dodgy for the serving firefighter to do FRA's.... [ is he qualified or is he retained]?
b] if the shop keepers do not employ more than 5 then the FRA does not need to be recorded
c] always seek professional help if a " responsible person" is unsure of his ground.
Conqueror
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I agree with you conqueror but would add to a) particularly if it is within his brigade and he is being paid for it.
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Mike
Too true!
Conqueror.
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Excuse my ignorrance but what makes a whole time firefighter anymore 'qualified' than a retained firefighter??
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Excuse my ignorrance but what makes a whole time firefighter anymore 'qualified' than a retained firefighter??
I think the point being made is that a wt or day crewing fire fighter may be competant to carry out an FRA because they may have the required training to assess them, but there are many retained fire fighters that are giving out incorrect legislative fire safety information and people are taking them on their word because they are fire fighters.
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I think everyone: consultants, fire fighters (whole time or otherwise) should all have to prove their competance to anyone they offer advice to. Being employed as a fire fighter or a consultant does not prove competance.
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I cannot speak for what is going on now as I retired from the fire service some time ago, but in my day the wholetime and day manning crews carried out a fair amount of fire safety work and they received fire safety training to do it. Principally it was inspecting and advising premises which did not require a fire certificate, there was also a move towards reinspecting certificated premises as well. This was backed up by training at recruit level and on station as well as during the promotion courses at Moreton. Also usually the fire safety officers worked from the station and were available for advice. This was compared to the retained who had a much shorter basic training and had only two hours a week ongoing training, most of which was operationally related.
I am not trying to dis the retained and I can't talk about the brigades today but the nub of the matter was that the wholetime and day manners did have fire safety training and a knowledge of what to look for, whilst the retained had little or no training and would have to rely on their experience.
I realise that the guides to the RRO should make it feasible for anyone to do a fire risk assessment but the correspondence on these boards seem to indiciate this is not so.
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The brigade I was in has cut back on fire safety for operational crews as they are not reqiuired to do inspections anymore due to the changes in legislation. Any fire safety knowledge can be third hand information passed down from an older member of the watch and is quite often out-of-date. If a crew turns out to a premises, they can often be asked about some fire safety matter by a manager, who may take it as read that that fire fighter knows what they are talking about and implements what they say. During my time as an FSO, I've done inspections of places like residential care homes where crews have advised managers that inadeqaute 'stay put' policies are fine, and that the fire service will evacuate residents. There is no audit trail of this info, and the Fire Service looks incompetant if one branch of the service tells people one thing, and the other does something else.
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Its not isolated for op crew staff to give out either patently wrong or outdated info, i always quiz carefully when somewhere refers to the FRS visiting as to who exactly did as some amazing stuff comes from staff not actively involved in FSO work.
It does of course depend on location & brigade as you can get some ops staff giving excellent advice and appropriate chastisement where they have a FSO remit or have just come of a stint as FSO.
Its like there are some areas I wouldn't dream of advising on without revision & consultation (eg parts of H&S stuff) as although qualified haven't worked in the area for some time & am too rusty to be competent
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Some of these guys going around offering RA's have no idea of the repercussions if things turn sour. It needs better regulation in so much that a "professional" should not offer advice without certified training body. Like the Financial Services Authority is prevents or at least tries to prevent those going around offering bad advice. If I am not FSA regulated and I told you to divert your entire pension into British Gas shares and that transpired to bad advice the consequences would be dire. Actually the way the gas prices are going up it’s probably very good advice LOL :)
For example I could suggest to someone preparing their own RA perhaps you should recognize that the residents on the top floor are partially deaf and maybe better suited to complement an AFD system with strobes in that area and/or move them to lower levels but I would not do the RA for them. In this respect I am offering generic advice for consideration that they may have overlooked or not realized. But as the RRO does not expect a professional to do the risk assessment so it may be more prudent to offer generic assistance and let the owner put his name on it. This way you’re not in the frame.
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I would hate to see the consultant.v.FSO competency debate re-instated.
However on a personal note I do feel that third party accreditation is an essential element in this field for all parties. I have raised within my own FRS the need for such accreditation for inspecting officers. There is currently a requirement to join the engineering division of the IFE and I would like to persue the IFE Auditor route for all too.
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And, don't forget that people can do their own FRAs online or with videos or "courses" they bought.
Unfortunately, whilst most would agree that anyone proclaiming to carry out FRAs should be policed or 3rd party assessed, it usually boils down to "who is going to do it?"
Legislation is jumped on by the CBI and business associations as "more red tape" so the Government likes to see the industry self-assess so you end up with something like BAFE or NACOSS.
Jason
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I am a full time serving firefighter. I have completed various fire safety modules with my service and as an operational firefighter we carry out FSEC fire safety visits to "gather info". This is carried out in shops, offices etc etc on my patch. My personal opinion goes right back to the initial posts. I believe competency is required along with a sound qualification such as the IFE modules etc. The litigation issues are very clear and comes down to good old "contributory neglegence" on behalf of the responsible person and the "consultant". We have had recent issues of officers giving FSEC briefs to firefighters and saying that they could indeed provide this type of consultancy. Dangerous talk!