Fold Housing

[nearlythere]

Does the panel consider Fold Housing to be or not to be relevant premises?

[SeaBass]

What's fold housing?

[Davo]

To be or not to be


davo

ps I don't know either

[nearlythere]

Called Fold Housing in NI they are essentially the self contained dwellings and apartments in a complex which are available for rent usually by the elderly.
Not sure what you call this set up on mainland.

[kurnal]

We call it sheltered housing.
Whether it is subject to the Order or not depends whether the definition of Domestic Premises in the NI legislation follows the English or the Scottish model.

Under the English legislation areas used in common by more than one tenant are not Domestic premises and are therefore subject to the Order. In Scotland they are considered Domestic Premises and therefore outside the Scope of the Act.

[nearlythere]

We call it sheltered housing.
Whether it is subject to the Order or not depends whether the definition of Domestic Premises in the NI legislation follows the English or the Scottish model.

Under the English legislation areas used in common by more than one tenant are not Domestic premises and are therefore subject to the Order. In Scotland they are considered Domestic Premises and therefore outside the Scope of the Act.

My thoughts too Kurnel.
I would consider such a set up as coming under Domestic Premises because it is someone's permanent residence not a place of care.

[kurnal]

Yes I agree NT  but what does the  NI legislation say? How does the NI  Order define Domestic premises?

[Tom Sutton]

The The Fire and Rescue Services (Northern Ireland) Order 2006. Section 50(6)

“domestic premises” means premises occupied as a private dwelling (including a stair, passage, garden, yard, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises which is used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling), but does not include a house in multiple occupation;

What is interesting they use the DCLG guidance which would contradict the above. (Sleeping risks)

[kurnal]

here it is.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/nisi/2006/1254/made

"6) For the purposes of paragraph (1)–

“domestic premises” means premises occupied as a private dwelling (including a stair, passage, garden, yard, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises which is used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling), but does not include a house in multiple occupation;

So your Legislation is based onthe Scottish approach and the common areas are not relevant premises but dont forget that for the maintenance of access and facilities for firefighters articles 23 and 24 will apply.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/nisr/2010/325/made

[AnthonyB]

to confuse it further.....

If you look at the NI Fire Services own website and entry level guide they are relevant premises!

http://www.nifrs.org/firesafe/premises.html

Read it carefully - private homes are excluded, even if inside a block of flats, but the shared areas of properties common to several households are, which by the use of the E&W guidance would be taken to mean the common circulation areas of flats. HMO's are separately listed, so the above definition isn't meant to mean them.

[nearlythere]

to confuse it further.....

If you look at the NI Fire Services own website and entry level guide they are relevant premises!

http://www.nifrs.org/firesafe/premises.html

Read it carefully - private homes are excluded, even if inside a block of flats, but the shared areas of properties common to several households are, which by the use of the E&W guidance would be taken to mean the common circulation areas of flats. HMO's are separately listed, so the above definition isn't meant to mean them.

I have read this many times AB and have convinced myself that what it means, by accident or design, is that the legislation applies to the common areas of multiple dwelling, however, the requirement to undertake a fire risk assessment does not.

There is the requirement to maintain measures provided for the safety of firefighters.

[Tom Sutton]

The Scots definition  “domestic premises” means premises occupied as a private dwelling (including a stair, passage, garden, yard, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises which is used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling); but does not include premises such as are mentioned in subsection (5).

(5)Those premises are—

(a)a house as respects which the giving of permission to occupy it is an activity for which a licence under the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 (Licensing of Houses in Multiple Occupation) Order 2000 (S.S.I. 2000/177) is required; (there are others)

The NI definition. "6) For the purposes of paragraph (1)–

“domestic premises” means premises occupied as a private dwelling (including a stair, passage, garden, yard, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises which is used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling), but does not include a house in multiple occupation;

It was made clear in a previous thread that in Scotland that the common areas of blocks of flats are not a relevant premises and as the two definition are very similar surely this is the same in N. I.

[nearlythere]

It is the same Tom. Common escape routes are not subject to risk assessment.

[Tom Sutton]

I have read this many times AB and have convinced myself that what it means, by accident or design, is that the legislation applies to the common areas of multiple dwelling, however, the requirement to undertake a fire risk assessment does not.

NT what part of the legislation applies to the common areas of multiple dwellings? The common areas form part of domestic premises therefore not a relevant premises.

[nearlythere]

I have read this many times AB and have convinced myself that what it means, by accident or design, is that the legislation applies to the common areas of multiple dwelling, however, the requirement to undertake a fire risk assessment does not.

NT what part of the legislation applies to the common areas of multiple dwellings? The common areas form part of domestic premises therefore not a relevant premises.

The Regulations say:-
Maintenance of measures provided in relevant premises for protection of fire fighters
23.—(1) Where necessary in order to secure the safety of fire fighters, (whether employees of the Board or otherwise) in the event of a fire in relevant premises, the person with duties under Article 25 or 26 shall ensure that the relevant premises and any facilities, equipment and devices provided in respect of the relevant premises for the use by or protection of fire fighters under these Regulations, the 2006 Order or under any other statutory provision, including any statutory provision repealed or revoked by, under or by virtue of the 2006 Order, are subject to a suitable system of maintenance and are maintained in an efficient state, in efficient working order and in good repair.

(2) Where the relevant premises form part of a building, the person with duties under Article 25 or 26 may make arrangements with the occupier of any premises forming part of the building for the purpose of ensuring that the requirements of paragraph (1) are met.

(3) Paragraph (2) applies even if the other premises are not relevant premises.

(4) Where the occupier of the other premises is not also the owner of those premises, the reference to the occupier in paragraph (2) is taken to be a reference to both the occupier and the owner.

Maintenance of measures provided in the common areas of private dwellings for protection of fire fighters
24.—(1) Regulation 23 shall apply to the common areas of private dwellings as if they were relevant premises, with the modifications specified in paragraphs (2) and (3).

(2) The duty imposed by paragraph (1) shall apply to—

(a)a person who has control to any extent of the common areas of private dwellings, to that extent;.
(b)a person who carries on an undertaking (whether for profit or not) and has control to any extent of the common areas of a private dwelling, to that extent; and.
(c)the person who owns the common areas of private dwellings..
(3) For the purposes of this regulation—

(a)the references to relevant premises in Articles 34, 37 and 49 shall be taken to include the common areas of private dwellings; and.
(b)the reference to fire safety duties in Articles 32(1), and (3), 33(1), 34(2)(c), (4)(a), (6) and (7), 37(1), (2)(a) and (6) and 39(1)(a) shall be taken to include the application in paragraph (1) of the safeguarding provision to the common areas of private dwellings; and.
(c)for the purposes of Article 41(3)(a), this regulation is deemed to be one to which a person is subject by virtue of regulations made under Article 30..