FIER SAFETY TRAINING IN AIRCRAFT HANGARS

[Paul]

I am very interested to hear the views of professional Fire Fighters on the issue of the provission of practical fire training for staff working in an aircraft hangar environment where aircraft fuelling operations and 'hot work' (welding) on aircraft engines take place. We have plenty of 90 litre foam extinguishers but nobody has been trained on how to use them safely.

We are arguing that practical means hands on setting of the extinguishers (albeit water for envirmental reasons) instead of sitting in front of a video or having someone in a classroom explaining how the thing works.

Your views would be greatly appreciated.

[John Webb]

I frequently used these while a member of the Fire Research Station, on fires ranging from around 4sqm to 16sqm, when working on fire-fighting foams. This was in a hanger, although one of the Cardington airshipsheds which we used at the time for fire tests.
The 90litre extinguishers do need 'hands-on' experience, I feel. You do not say what size of airport your particular hanger is on, but if it has fire/crash crew(s) and they have a practice area, why not see if they can lay on a session for you? There is, I understand, these days a 'practice' foam which is environmentally friendly and which would give a better 'feel' for those gaining experience.

[Paul]

Thanks John for your comments, I am particularly concerned about the aspect of conducting fuelling operations and welding work on aircraft engines with the aircraft inside the hanger, surrounded by other aircraft and equipment. Our internal procedures require that someone 'mans' a 90 litre foam extinguisher when the only training in fire safety they have recieved is a video. What I need to provide an argument to our bosses is expert advice as to the requirements of Fire Precautions Act and other statutory requirements.

The airport in question is probably the largest in the UK with an excellant Fire Service BUT it would still take some minutes to reach us after they have been called. If we can argue that this 'hands on' training is a statutory requirement, then we can be better equiped to prevent a distaster.

As a representative of Staff Safety, I do not wish to see my colleagues endangering themselves because of pressures from management to complete the task and get the aircraft out.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[John Webb]

Glad to have been of some help. I hope this is helpful as well.
Clearly someone has assessed the risk and decided that a manned fire-fighting unit is required when certain operations are going on due to the perceived risk. Therefore according to H&SatWork requirements there is a need for a competent person to carry out this job, as for any job. Therefore there is a need for appropriate training; and I would argue that the size and nature of the risk warrents 'hands-on' live fire training to produce a competent person to cope with the possible hazard.

Regards

[messy]

"an aircraft hangar environment where aircraft fuelling operations and 'hot work' (welding) on aircraft engines take place"

Hopefully not at the same time or you'll need a few more extinguishers!

[cbfire999]

Refueling within military aircraft hangars is a no no, so i wonder if yours is similar?!  Unless the aircraft is not moveable.  In which case a crash tender should be in attendance.  Furthermore tugs should be readily available should the brown stuff hit the fan.  Furthermore, annual fire training should include hands on operation and water only would be better than nothing as it is the correct operation of the 90 lt that is all important.

[Paul]

As a senior Health and Safety Rep, I am trying to establish the industry / legal standard for this type of operation ..... the employer believes that hands on (setting off training 90 litre extinguishers) is NOT required as we have a video and computer training on fire and the first aid fire fighting appliances. They may extend this to sitting in a 'classroom' and have someone descibe the operation of this equipment to us.

The issue came about when our contract with the airport Fire Service was terminated. The contract made provission for a Fire Tender to be present at all times these activities took place. Since this termination, the hanger deluge systems were reactivated after a 10 year period where they were de-activated (due to uncommanded activations). The source for the deluge AND sprinkler systems is from a 'black water' source which raises other biohazard issues (which we shall be addressing once we have the training issue out of the way).

The question of Fire Risk Assessments are currently being addressed through local H&S Reps as the current situation is some FIVE years out of date. This and the changes to the Fire Regulations (not requiring Fire Safety Certificates anymore) has opened up a can of worms for all concerned.

My view is that 'if it is established through expert advice and by risk assessment that the hands on training is not required then lets have our procedures ammended to not requiring an untrained individual from manning the equipment and get rid of the 90 litre extinguishers altogether!' Unfortunately, the employer does not / will not listen to the expert advice and therefore I need some hard evidence to take to the management compelling them to comply. The alternative is to make our complaint to the HSE, Fire Authority and the CAA (copying our insurers of course).

I would be very grateful if someone could guide me in the right direction.

[John Webb]

As a former H&S Rep as well, you have my sympathy. I would be inclined to involve the local HSE Inspector - although I am aware that due to shortages of staff and other resources it may take them some time to respond.
The other tack is to ask management to demonstrate the use of such an extinguisher on a live fire after they have 'just watched the video' - unless they have had fire-fighting experience I doubt if they will adequately cope! Then you do have a cast-iron case. (I hope!).
Best wishes.

[Paul]

What a good idea .... I shall discuss this tack with my colleagues. We are currently compiling a report and complaint to the Fire Authority, HSE, CAA and the company insurers detailing the issues.

Thanks for your help

[firey]

Angus TF90 For training,

Although u can use alcoseal aswell, as it isnt detrimental to the environment

[captfizz]

hi,
if you need information then can i suggest you go to the CAA 's website and go to publications and download the civil aviation publication 748 which gives guidelines on fuelling ops in hangars ( i assume you come under the regs of the CAA )
this will tell you about how much fuel you can transfer, hangar doors open, use of mobile phones etc.
the hands on training of extinguishers etc should maybe come down to the health and safety at work act (for instance if your employer provides you with a peice of equipment but does not train you suitably on it's use and someone gets hurt i beleive that your employer may be failing in his duty of care to you).
try to get info from the HSE on health and safety at work
 please feel free to e-mail me and i might be able to help you with the extinguisher training
cheers

[davio]

I have a couple of ideas
1)Have you considered the involvement of the companies insurance company?
2)Using the fire risk assessment process their should be consulation between employer/employee.
The employer should consider the processes that places any one at risk from fire especially where the employees are expected to save the company several millions of pounds/euros from firefighting...wonder what would be said if all you would do was state "the fire fighting equipment is positioned for first aid firefighting and to secure the means of escape".
First aid firefighting (extinguishers) is not provided to extinguish fires where rapid fire spread is to be expected. It is provided to safe guard the safe evacuation of employees and others.
By ensuring the employer realises that the materials involved, the speed of fire spread, the high financil loss from such a fire and PLACING EMPLOYEES IN HIGHLY DANGEROUS POSITIONS should make the employer sit up and listen!

If you make no head way with these points  contact your local technical fire safety department at the local brigade. They may choose to audit the staff training policies and procedures in relation to the high risk environment employees have been asked to remain in to fight fires...

Have you also considered the highly toxic products of combustion that is given off from such a fire involving the composite materials aircraft are constructed from and the very high temperatures attained in a very short period of time, read seconds rather than minutes...

[kev AFFR operational]

Hello there

iam an operational airport fireighter 16years expirence and trainer for hertfordshire recruits and have trained Essex  fire officers from rank of station officer to DO level in avaition fire fighting techniques  i also do alot of laision work with essex and Herts

with regard to your fire training i presume that under the HSE it is responsibility of your employer to train all it's staff in any equipment it is likely to use ie fire fighting and all comptetancies to be logged and recordered for legal reasons if anything is to go wrong because when an investigation is undertaken and found that no personnel are trained in specific equipment relating to emplyers duties then i think you will agree the mud will hit the fan big time i think you will find it is the responsibility of your employer to provide you with specialist training or find an accredited company that can do this with certificates of training and also do yearly refresher training you could also have one of your employees trained as a trainer and be certificated to train the staff but that person trained as the trainer must have refresher training yearly this would be the cheapest option i have done staff  fire training and that was the way they went forward.

I hope i have answered your question my friend see what your boss thinks slthough i think you will find you will have to do it from a legal point of view i may be wrong  best of luck

regards kev