New Guide Places of Worship

[kurnal]

I would be interested if there is any practical guidance on how to deal with some of the challenges posed by fire risk assessment in a Mosque- the shoes left in the main entrance, the worshippers wanting to leave the way they entered to collect their shoes and so slowing down the evacuation, the build up of queues as a result, compounded by the very strict hierarchy during worship.

[kurnal]

Thanks to a friend I have now seen a copy of the document.
I am glad I didn’t buy it.

Apart from a general comment and specific reference to the Hindu Havan ceremony it does not address specific issues relating to other faiths apart from Christianity. 

And paragraph 1.2 – Places of Worship and the Law creates an interesting new perspective. Apparently fire certificates are no longer needed for Churches, and The Fire Precautions (workplace) (amendment) Regulations 2003 require a fire risk assessment to be carried out.

It then goes on to explain that the responsible person can be more or less anybody.

Am I being too prickly? 

[John Webb]

I regret that I cannot recommend this book.

It appears to be mostly based on text dealing with commercial risks only with minor modifications.

It has serious omissions with respect to fire risk assessment in places of worship, particularly the problems of old and historic buildings and especially the structural problems that may exist, the 'chimney' effect of towers and the implication for bell-ringers and the like, and dual-purpose buildings used both for worship and for community activities.

It takes little account of the needs of listed buildings for sympathetic adaptions and treatment, or of those buildings perhaps in isolated areas with only small congregations or infrequent use.

It gives very little extra information on non-Christian faiths other than the use of fire in some particular ceremonies; the sort of detail regarding mosques pointed out by kurnal in his post above is missing.

There is very poor linkage between the possible need for emergency lighting and its provision and maintenance throughout the document.

There is much mention of the LPCB and the 'Red Book' and the use of consultants 'such as BRE'.

The References at the end do not include the Churches' Main Committee (now the Churches' Legislation Advisory Service) 'Fire Risk Assessment Principles for Church Premises' (available for a free down-load) and at present my recommended reading for at least Christian places of worship.

I wonder if the un-named authors of this BRE publication have deliberately left their names off in view of the shortcomings of this document? I hope they were not former colleagues of mine!

[nearlythere]

Certainly some of the terminology used suggests a limited working knowledge of fire safety legislation.

[jokar]

John,

Thank you for a forthright opinion of this document.  It is wothwhile for us all to utilise expertise in this way and I thank you for taking the time to read and then write about this documents failings.

[John Webb]

My pleasure - be interesting to see if we get any comments from BRE!

I might just ring up a couple of people I know who are still working there with a discrete enquiry or two.....

[messy]

So if this guide has been all but written off, what is the definitive guide of places of worship???

[nearlythere]

So if this guide has been all but written off, what is the definitive guide of places of worship???

PPA as the "new" guide advises us.

[John Webb]

The 'Definitive' Guide is hopefully on it's way later this year, courtesy of the recently formed IFE 'Heritage Special Interest Group' which I'm a member of. Steve Emery of English Heritage, myself and one or more from the Ecclesiastical Insurance Office are involved. Steve is working on the first draft to an outline agreed at the last Group meeting.

Meanwhile if anyone has any queries about Christian places of worship I'll do my best to answer; I'm sure with kurnal and others about queries on other faith's building could also be answered.

By the way, what is the best solution to the shoes in a mosque main entrance, kurnal??

[stuart.hood]

The book is avaliable for download at the following website for £28.75.

http://www.brebookshop.com/details.jsp?id=324459

ISBN : 978-1-84806-063-0

I have a copy and cannot see anything worthwhile in it to warrant the outlay.

[jokar]

John, there isn't one.  2000 attendees and 4000 shoes all kept in one place so the owners know where to go back to.  Too difficult to do anything else other than put up with it.

[messy]

The shoe issue is a very serious one and, with respect Jokar, perhaps 'putting up with it' is not always appropriate. The problem may be greater at temporary functions, say in public halls etc.

I once found a large but overcrowded assembly room above a shopping centre where a Muslim religious leader was giving a talk. The room had been emptied of it's contents and 200+ chairs and tables had been placed in the secondary MOE.
The room had been divided into male/female areas (the men watching the speaker 'live' and the women by cctv) by a large suspended drape across the room and obstructed the only MOE for the women's side.
This drape also separated the temporary kitchen which was adjacent to the only MOE, and had deep frying units set up against the drapes!! - luckily it was the cooking fumes which operated the AFD and alerted the Brigade

Then the shoes issue: Approx 1,500 individual shoes in a stack in the entrance of the room. No racks, just a heap. The only MOE was via an escalator (the other being blocked by chairs) so it's unlikely that anyone would want to leave without shoes.

It was a very tricky situation. Politically speaking it wasn't long after 9/11 and in a predominately Asian neighbourhood and the attendees were less than happy at our 'racist' intervention. After about 90mins, all but the shoes issue was resolved. Stewards had been hastily arranged and the meeting continued.

So don't write off the shoe storage problem, as even when in racks, they are inevitably by the final exit, so may seriously slow down the evacuation,

[kurnal]

John, there isn't one.  2000 attendees and 4000 shoes all kept in one place so the owners know where to go back to.  Too difficult to do anything else other than put up with it.

Theres a number of potential problems- at least they are asking for advice.

Shoes- I have tried to persuade them first of all to use shoe racks and many of the younger members are co-operating with this but the older members still persist on leaving them on the floor almost totally covering the escape route floor. We have also  persuaded them to buy some boxes of those polythene overshoes that are sited at all storey exits so at least the members may use the exits rather than go looking for their shoes.

Response to fire alarms is a bigger potential problems, with Males and Females using different entrances and parts of the building, there is a real potential for persons to go looking for their relatives in an emergency.


The elders of the Mosque committee are revered and what they say goes. Many take a very traditional view and do not wish to make changes to custom and practice- considerations of The Fire Safety Order are not on the agenda. With the elders the language barriers are more pronounced and persuasion and education  is nigh on impossible for advisors such as myself. Many younger members who wish to make progress are stifled in their efforts as they do not have the full understanding of the Law and their deference makes persuasion difficult. The younger members cannot set the agenda.

I dont think that worship would be interrupted because the fire alarm was sounding. I think the leader of worship would determine whether evacuation would take place depending the situation as he saw it at the time.

I have set up an evacuation plan and trained younger members as stewards. I have no confidence in the procedures being followed.

Fortunately the fire loading is generally very low- except for the piles of shoes in the staircases- so fire growth rate should be very slow though one could imagine scenarios where other factors come to the fore- eg terrorist attack or lightning strike.

 

[jokar]

Messy,as Kurnal explains more in detail than I, the politics of this will ensure that all you can do is put up with it.

[John Webb]

Thanks, kurnal and messy, for those informative comments. The IFE publication does hope to give advice on all places of worship, although the original initiative came from EH's concern about 'over the top' recommendations from consultants particularly for listed Christian buildings.

If anyone does have suggestions for subjects that ought to be included, either post here or PM me if you prefer, and I'll see they get passed on.