THE DEFENCE FIRE SERVICES

[Guest]

Doing some research into the Ministry of Defence Fire Services

Can anyone help me?

I understand that the Defence Fire Service is part of the MoD Fire Services and is a civillian briagde very much like any other local authority brigade etc.

Can anyone tell me if they respond to incidents outside their own perimeter fence? ie do hey provide firecover to local villages

The RAF and Navy both have their own proffesional firefighting trades / services but why are defence fireman sometimes found covering airbases instead of RAF firefighters for example?

Is the Cheif fire foficer of the Defence fire service also CFO of the military fire services?

Thanks for your help - its for a magazine article.

[Guest]

yes they do

[Guest]

yes they do

some are

there is not enough to go around

cfo tend to be either

[Guest]

The Defence Fire Service is the MoD Fire Service.  RAF and RN Fire Services are a small part of the Defence Fire Service comprising serving members of HM Forces.  The civilian wing of the Service were once autonomous groups called the Air Force Department (AFDFS) and Army Fire Service.  The air bases to which you refer have always been staffed by civillian members of the AFDFS (Lucars, Lossiemouth, Leeming etc.) The MOD reorganised in the late 1980's (stand to corrected on date) and formed the Defence Fire Service which ineffect sounded the death nell of the RAF Fire Service which up until at least 1987 had it's own training establishment at RAF Catterick.  Command and control of the forces element of the DFS has always been under civillian command, the RAF Fire Service was administered first by the RAF Regiment, it has only ever had four serving commissioned officers all of whom were commissioned into the RAF Reg:  The career structure therefore for an RAF Firefighter stopped at Warrant Officer.  Historically there has been animosity between service men and civillian DFS because the former always got the crap whilst the latter did better and got more money, I think that has subsided somewhat in recent years because of intigration of training, postings and the shrinking Air Force.  Naval personnel got an even rougher deal, but hey, if you can't take a joke you shouldn't have joined.

[Guest]

Should have said that you can get the history of the MoD Fire Services from the Central Fire Training Establishment at RAF Manston

[Guest]

I think you will find that the DFS was formed in the early '90s, probably 1991.

[Guest]

Right thanks for the repolies so far please do keep them coming

So to recap then :-

1) Defence Fire Stations do respond to incidents in the local communties
2) Air Bases have always been covered by civilian fire crews - Ive been told that some raf bases only have RAF fireman
3) The whole umbrella of the defence fire service is commanded by a civilian cheif fire officer
4) Some defence fire cover is provided by contractors who remain under the general term "defence fire service"

[Guest]

Just wanted to correct a few inaccuracies in respect of points made by others on this subject

The Defence Fire Service is part of the MOD Fire Services. The MoD Fire Service comprises Military Fire Services too under the general heading of the MoD Fire Service.

Basically this is how it works

1)   The defence fire service is the civilian wing of the MoD fire service. The confusing part is that it has three command sections – one for the army , one for the RAF one for the Navy. They do all come under the control of one Chief officer but its normally Divisonal Commanders who are in charge of each command section.

2)   In addition to the above you also have the military fire services. The army fire service no longer really exists - there is no trade for firefighting in the army. However the Navy and the RAF do have their own ‘professional’ or ‘trade’ fire services. Again they come under the general umbrella of the MoD Fire Services. Royal Air force firefighters normally protect RAF bases where there are specialist risks such as planes carrying heavy weaponry, however defence firefighters are also trained in how to disarm weapons on aircraft. Basically speaking its cheaper to employ civilians than airmen so some airbases are protected by defence firefighters. The same goes for navy installations.

3)   Defence fire service will if requested respond to incidents outside the perimeter fence in the local communities , however its normal practice for the local fire and civil defence authority to request their assistance. In some very rare cases an arrangement has been set up whereby the DFS will respond automatically to incidents in the local community.

4)   The MoD Fire Services (ie the defence fire service, the military fire services) are under the control of one civilian Chief Fire Officer. That is to say then that chief fire officer of the MoD fire service and the chief officer of the defence fire service is one and the same person!

5)   The Defence Fire Service personnel train in exactly the same way as Local authority fire and civil defence brigades. RAF personnel tend to specialise in Aircraft Firefighting and crash rescue. The Navy arm deal mainly with fires on ships/vessels. Defence fire service personnel train on all aspects, ships, aircraft and domestic fires etc etc. Their rank structure and equipment is exactly the same as used in LA Brigades

If there were more Defence firefighters employed in the UK they would probably be tasked to provide temporary fire cover were there ever another national fire strike. Unfortunately the defence fire service has cut back its numbers over the past few years and there isn’t nearly enough defence firefighters to replace Local authority firefighters. Therefore elements of the Military side of the MoD Fire Services were drafted in along soldiers from the army who are given basic training. I have to say I think they did a fantastic job during the last strike. The RAF and RN provided BA and Specialist Rescue teams. The Army mainly provided the firefighting aspect of the operations.

[Guest]

Just wanted to correct a few inaccuracies in respect of points made by others on this subject

The Defence Fire Service is part of the MOD Fire Services. The MoD Fire Service comprises Military Fire Services too under the general heading of the MoD Fire Service.

Basically this is how it works

1)   The defence fire service is the civilian wing of the MoD fire service. The confusing part is that it has three command sections – one for the army , one for the RAF one for the Navy. They do all come under the control of one Chief officer but its normally Divisonal Commanders who are in charge of each command section.

2)   In addition to the above you also have the military fire services. The army fire service no longer really exists - there is no trade for firefighting in the army. However the Navy and the RAF do have their own ‘professional’ or ‘trade’ fire services. Again they come under the general umbrella of the MoD Fire Services. Royal Air force firefighters normally protect RAF bases where there are specialist risks such as planes carrying heavy weaponry, however defence firefighters are also trained in how to disarm weapons on aircraft. Basically speaking its cheaper to employ civilians than airmen so some airbases are protected by defence firefighters. The same goes for navy installations.

3)   Defence fire service will if requested respond to incidents outside the perimeter fence in the local communities , however its normal practice for the local fire and civil defence authority to request their assistance. In some very rare cases an arrangement has been set up whereby the DFS will respond automatically to incidents in the local community.

4)   The MoD Fire Services (ie the defence fire service, the military fire services) are under the control of one civilian Chief Fire Officer. That is to say then that chief fire officer of the MoD fire service and the chief officer of the defence fire service is one and the same person!

5)   The Defence Fire Service personnel train in exactly the same way as Local authority fire and civil defence brigades. RAF personnel tend to specialise in Aircraft Firefighting and crash rescue. The Navy arm deal mainly with fires on ships/vessels. Defence fire service personnel train on all aspects, ships, aircraft and domestic fires etc etc. Their rank structure and equipment is exactly the same as used in LA Brigades

If there were more Defence firefighters employed in the UK they would probably be tasked to provide temporary fire cover were there ever another national fire strike. Unfortunately the defence fire service has cut back its numbers over the past few years and there isn’t nearly enough defence firefighters to replace Local authority firefighters. Therefore elements of the Military side of the MoD Fire Services were drafted in along soldiers from the army who are given basic training. I have to say I think they did a fantastic job during the last strike. The RAF and RN provided BA and Specialist Rescue teams. The Army mainly provided the firefighting aspect of the operations.

[Guest]

Just Browsing,
Yes and no,
1) Yes but only on request or special arrangement (the RAF Firefighters at Wittering for example will turn out to RTA's on the A1 in a reciprocal arrangement with Cambs F&R)
2) Didn't say that, some airfields Lucas, Lossie, Leeming have always been staffed by AFDFS (or civvies), other units Brize Norton, Kinloss, Honnington etc are staffed by RAF Firefighters.  RAF Firefighters specialise in aircraft only because of their location on airfields (as do CAA firefighters and local authority bods at airports Heathrow, Gatwick, Manchester) but their training encompasses all fire fighting techniques.  Some military airfields have a locally employed civillian element on crew working alongside the RAF Firefighters, Akrotiri, RAF G (thats about it nowadays) etc.
3) Yes
4) Yes (Cranwell for example)

The firefighters on board RN vessels are not full time trade firefighters, each ship has a fire party on watch commanded by the officer of the watch. Aircraft handlers on the other hand are fully trained firefighters whose sideline is aircraft turn around, RHAG maintenance, these guys provide fire cover at Naval Air Stations using RIV's and Major Foam Tenders.  There has never been a Fire Fighter trade in the Army, the Army Fire Service always comprised of civilians employed locally by the Army, Catterick, Halton, Aldershot etc.

There are over 22,000 LA Fire Fighters in this country, the full time millitary fire fighters never had the strength to cover all these posts, the RAF have always provided specialist BA teams during FBU action, go back to the 1973 Glasgow strike and before.

The military fire fighter has always done well on these occasions, and will in the future, it's part of the job.

[Guest]

Again

1) Yep as I mentioned Mil and DFS personnel will turn out if requested by the Local Fire and Civil Defence Crews

2) Again there was an army fire service manned by civilians but that as i mentioned no longer exists it used to be what is now covered by elements of the Defence Fire Service

3) There is a team of fulltime firefighters within the royal navy in fact colin you already answered your own question there - its the aircraft handling teams who also provide fire cover on RN Bases where DFS personell arent utilised

4) Naturally there arent enough military or civilian defence staff to cover a complete my piont related to the work of the DFS who are trained in exactly the same way as LA Firefighters and are therefore possibly best placed to be able to walk straight in and dothe job as it were

5) Again i did point out that RAF and RN specialise in certain areas, they do also take basic training in domestic firefighting as do CAA fire firefighters, UKEA firefighters, Industrial Firefighters etc etc however it is not as intense as the course undertaken by the defence fire service. The m,ilitary brigades train moire in their specialist areas whilst DFS and LA firefighters get a general smattering of almost everything

[Guest]

I used to work at Elgin Fire station as a w/t local authority firebod back in the early-mid 90s where we were close too, sometimes worked alongside and just ocassionally socialised with the Fire sections at both RAF Lossiemouth (5 miles distant) and Kinloss (10 miles distant).
My understanding was that Kinloss were RAF and Lossie DFS due to the nuclear capability of the Nimrods stationed Kinloss, although at that time Lossie flew Bucanneers which in the 60s and 70s were nuclear capable but which no longer fulfilled a nuclear role at Lossie.
I was also informed of another reason in that Kinloss was 24 hour and 365 operational and acted as a civilian diversionary airfield whereas Lossie was only a 24 hr base during heightened operations during night flying exercises which were few and far between.
Lossie now however is the largest fast jet base in the UK which has seen an increase in air field activity and to my knowledge is still DFS whilst Kinloss i believe is still RAF.
Why therefore is the busier of the 2 DFS?

[Guest]

not sure i understand your question there my friend.

RAF Firefighters are normally stationed at areas where aircraft with nuclaer capability land.

Defence Fire Service personel could also undertake this role. However sometimes at high security bases it is better to employ military personell rather than civilian due to security reasons.

In terms of your question Kinloss being open 24hours doesnt mean to say that the RAF were busier than the defence firecrews.

Remember that the Defence Fire Service comes under the Fire Services Act 1947 and therefore is like any other public service brigade.

In a nutshell Defence Fire Crews can respond to accidents outside their base. RAF firecrew can also however trying to get them insured for domestic work is harder. Plus its rare these days to find a RAF fire appliance in the required Red colour with high viz markings as traffic regs dictate.

So thats possibly why DFS satff were more busier.

Id like to point out that this is not a criticism of the RAF fire crews - they are just as capable as any other crew.

They just deal witgh slightly different policies and procedures that is all.

[Guest]

During the recent periods of industrial unrest DFS firefighters trained a lot of military personnel to carry out duties "on the streets" either as Green Goddess crews or BA rescue Teams.
Another DFS task was to "backfill" the RAF fire crews who were removed from their bases and sent for strike duty on the streets.
Why didn't the DFS go on the streets instead of the RAF?
Because the DFS are civilians who are also members of the TGWU and therefore the need to avoid a big stink at the TUC arises.

[Guest]

Not strictly true although I agree it wouold have caused unrest.

The truth is that there just isn't enough Defence Firefighters available to man large areas or communities.