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THE REGULATORY REFORM (FIRE SAFETY) ORDER 2005 => Press Releases => Topic started by: Jim Creak on October 29, 2010, 07:45:57 AM
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The goodwill between the public and the Fire Authority will not sustain this new abuse..
The taxpayer certainly does not get anything like value for money from the £2 billion spent annually on the fire service, with a fortune wasted on inefficient use of staff.
Firefighters have to work only 142 shifts a year, made up of 71 night shifts and 71 day shifts, allowing them plenty of time to hold down second jobs. Yet, even with these limited hours, their pay is well above the public sector average.
Nationwide, the basic salary for a trained firefighter is £28,200 (excluding overtime), rising to £33,200 in London, significantly above the average earnings in the capital for police officers and nurses.
With overtime, that figure will be increased to anything between £40,000 and £50,000. Moreover, a watch manager in charge of up to 12 firefighters is paid around £40,000 a year before overtime.
On top of this, most current firefighters are entitled to an excellent pension after 30 years of service once they have reached the age of 50, though, due to a Government reform of 2006, new recruits will have to complete 40 years’ service before they will be able to receive their pension.
Despite the protestations of the FBU, firefighting is seen as one of the best jobs in the ¬country. That is why there is no shortage of new recruits, with at least 27 applicants for every vacancy.
Nor do many firefighters leave before taking their pensions. Last year in London, just 15 employees, less than 0.3 per cent of the entire workforce, quit their jobs, a level of ¬stability unheard of in any other occupation.
The FBU might have exploited public sentimentality to protect their empire, but the reality is we no longer need this vast standing army of well-paid ¬professionals who, because of the nature of their work and shift patterns, spend so much time hanging round their stations or doing other jobs.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1324092/Fire-Brigades-Union-defends-jaw-dropping-perks-gross-inefficiencies.html?ito=feeds-newsxml#ixzz13jAkuFo5
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Interesting comments from the Daily Mail.
I wish I had time to 'hang around the station' when I'm doing one of my 142 shifts. Perhaps they don't realise that my working week is 48 hours, much longer than the average working week and clearly, they have no idea of what we do during that time.
Our salary is decent, but firefighters fought to get this in 2002/3 when many unskilled jobs paid more than our 'professional job' to quote the mail. London salaries are subject to 'London weighting' so will be more and managers are paid to manage, not just personnel but incidents where critical deisions have to be made quickly with little or no information.
There is no mention there of the cuts that the Fire and Rescue Service is about to face ... up to 25% reduction in funding for many, the fact that alot of Services have had to impose pay freezes, recruitment freezes and crewing reductions, yet will be expected to deliver the same high standard of front line service to the public we so proudly serve.
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I'm afraid that, as with all conflicts, the first casualty here is the truth. The press and fbu are sacrificing the integrity of an honourable profession with lies and spin purely for headline grabbing purposes.
Reading an article by the dep political editor in the Daily Mail yesterday and knowing the FB I wonder how I can ever believe anything written in this paper again.
Is it a requirement of good journalism to be able to ignore the facts for a good story?
Certainly a case of the press ensuring we only hear what it thinks we should hear.
PS. Anyone know the number of applications there normally are when a Fleet St job comes up?
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Certainly a case of the press ensuring we only hear what it thinks we should hear.
Or what it's told to publish.
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As a union of labour supporter, I think this stinks.....If it is more press lies then I hope the individuals concerned sue the pants off the Daily Telegraph from where this information came....If it is true it is disgraceful
A respected profession and its members cannot justify this profligacy....."Some pigs more equal than others" quote unquote at this trough of public money.
Daily Telegraph.....FBU Union leaders?
"The payments included tens of thousands of pounds worth of perks including pension payments, mortgages costs and the contributions towards the cost of running a car.
Documents filed with the Union Certification Officer show five officers at the FBU shared packages worth £598,833 in 2009 and £587,778 in 2008.
The largest amount went to Matt Wrack, the union’s general secretary, who received £128,328, including £46,250-worth of pension contributions and £4,584 for his car. His basic pay was £69,340.
Andy Dark, Mr Wrack’s deputy, received £121,468, including £65,413 in basic pay, £43,631 for his pension and £4,773 in a car allowance.
Three other national officers – Sean Starbuck, Paul Woolstenholmes and John McGhee – received between £114,167 and £118,719 in 2009.
The accounts do not make clear which of these sums paid to which officer. One of the national offices received £14,042 towards the costs of his car, fuel and mortgage. Another received £8,477 towards his car and fuel.
There are 4,500 frontline fire fighters in London. A fully trained-up or “competent” fireman is paid £28,499 a year, plus £5,021 for London weighting, excluding pension contributions and car allowances.
Value for money campaigners criticised the payments. Emma Boon, campaign manager at the TaxPayers’ Alliance, said: “It is hypocritical for FBU leaders to attack high earners and call for strikes while they themselves live a life of well-paid luxury. "
The changes required are reasonable and the members should accept them, much worse is happening throughout the economy.
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The changes required are reasonable and the members should accept them, much worse is happening throughout the economy.
The changes required should be identified, justified, negotiated in good faith by both parties and agreed.
Neither side seems capable of basic civilised industrial relations. The FBU must recognise the need to negotiate on this, the employer is wrong to impose a choice of these conditions or the sack.
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As I understand it since Matt Wrack took position he earns the average wage of a uniformed member of the fire service, whatever that amounts to I am unsure. This was his pledge leading up to his election.
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How often are pledges forgotten after election in politics though?
And don't try and tell me Unions are not politicised....
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Yes Anthony election pledges can often be forgotten but it would not take much to confirm for anyone interested.
As far as being politicised goes, well not quite sure what you refer to here but I can confirm that the fbu are no longer financially affiliated with the Labour or indeed any political party.
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Well I speak as I find and it would seem that the FBU have seen reason and a bit of old common sense now prevails. I hope it will continue for the sake of the profession and not outdated selfish political ideals that have no place in the 21st century
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Jim, can I assume that you consider firefighters right to strike an outdated, selfish polical ideal?
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Well I certainly do, having just received a letter from a "full-time professional firefighter" with an outer London Brigade asking me to use his services as a Fire Risk Assessor "on my days off". There was a time when I would have had sympathy with brigades, for the job they are employed to do, but the more I hear of their dissatisfaction with salaries which frankly a huge number of the population of the UK would give their eye teeth for (and be well satisfied with, thank you very much) and the amount of time they have in which to do all these other jobs - nice little earners - the more closely I ally them with politicians - and I thought nobody had a higher opinion of their worth than them! Seriously considering changing my name to Mrs Grumpy!
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So Aunty (or is it Mrs Grumpy), is 42 hours a week too short a working week for your liking?
Do you disagree with anyone having more than one job or is it simply firefighters?
Is it acceptable for coucillors, MPs, doctors, nurses etc etc..........?
I am not quite sure what you mean when making reference to "their dissatisfaction with salaries" as there has been no campaign on pay touted as far as I am aware.
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I know it's going back abit now, but wasn't one of the outcomes of the '78 strike the current shift system, and with it an understanding within the Union that they wouldn't condone second jobs?
I know alot of things have changed since then, not all (sadly) for the better!
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The Union is more than happy that many firefighters have second jobs. I don't mind and I think it is everyone's right to work as they wish.
But when they have a second job and are on strike they still have an income of sort and are less likely to suffer hardship, thus staying out longer. Some may even be better or no worse off. Happy union officials.
I have never done the double and can remember standing regularily on a freezing picket line whilst other strikers drove past on their way to work tooting their horns. Until I caught myself on that is.
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I am a socialist and agree whole heartedly in the principles of shared resources, each to their needs which means there is no place for selfish, unilateral grab n greed in my opinion. We need better disciplines than that to challenge the economic hardships the we face in the 21st Century. In the big scheme of things the FBU have by industrial action and putting lives at risk secured fantastic terms and conditions for its employees in the past however those days of grab n greed under Tony Blair have gone and the reality has now dawned from that excess. The changes now required to redress the balance and primarily to shift hours are not that onerous and any amount of common sense would agree that the current working shift system is not efficient use of resources. True social conscience would tell you that but by inference we, the rest of society, get the impression that you (Mr Angry) are saying " Pull the ladder up! Jack! I'm alright "
Your justification is that we are all at it. This is not true most of us are really concerned about the future, we the unheard silent majority that does not have a public bottomless purse to empty. I am aghast at the salary perks and benefits of the FBU union officers this is as far removed from collective bargaining and collective protection as the ordinary man can comprehend, understand let alone be happy with. It is selfish and it is why socialism will never work, it is an ideal destroyed by the very selfish nature of human beings. Looking after number one. The FBU leadership should be ashamed of itself and therefore the membership by default and by democracy guilty of hypocrisy.
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Jim, would I be right in my assumption that you are not a firefighter?
You mention that the shift in working hours are not that onerous and that any amount of common sense would agree that the current current shift system is not an efficient use of resources. Can I firstly ask as to why you hold this opinion and the details and advantages of any system that you may be able to propose.
As for the "we" the rest of society get the impession that I am saying pull the ladder up Jack, I am alright line....I have no idea what you are trying to say here therefore will not attemp to respond.
Can I assume that you are also unhappy about workers, or is it just firefighters having more than one job, or am I reading this wrong?
In your socialist world would you have all workers right to strike removed, or just that of firefighters.
Sorry for so many questions Jim, I am just unsure of what exactly you are trying to say here.
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Quite right I am not a firefighter, I'm far too short for a start.
However you are right we are talking about Firefighters salaries, not other jobs part time spare time or 2nd or 3rd Jobs this I feel is totally irrelevant. I have never objected to anyone having as many jobs as they feel they can do. Most Firefighters that I talk to that have other jobs are putting the training that they recieve from the public purse up for for sale in the private sector, which as long as they declare the income that is taxed is putting something back into the system in repayment which is for the public good.
However,the forum was discussing the industrial dispute over minor changes in the shift patterns of firefighters, the planning and deployment of valuable resources in an effective and efficient way for the public good. The majority of the adult voting population (the we that I refer to) have voted democratically for major cuts in public expenditure for the good of all of us. The public good!!
If the efficient use of resources cannot be achieved by good working relationships ,the only other alternative must be less firefighters, or less who? I just get the impression from the over paid FBU union officers comments that the FBU do not care who it is as long as it is not them. " Pull the ladder up Jack I'm alright"
I give you this feed back for what it is worth. I agree I maybe wrong but I speak to a fair few people in the course of my daily work within the Fire Safety industry and I have spoken to quite a lot of them about this dispute and from what they have read and heard there has not been one supporter of your cause, even less when they know that the negotiators are on £400,000 a year. You are a Public Service and I think I give you fair reflection of public opinion. I apologise wholeheartedly if I am wrong.
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Ok Jim,
Firstly you will not be too short as we no longer have height restrictions.
You mention minor changes in shift pattern. This may be minor to you, whom it has no bearing but it has a major effect to those involved.
As a socialist I am sure you will be only too keen for workers to be able to utilise their right to withdraw their labour should they feel the need to, or is it this that you have an issue?
Lets first go back a wee bit here. Firefighters do not work the 142 days as your quote says, it is closer to 197 by my quick calculations which I might add is over a 42 hour week.
Your quote also states that the tax payer does not get anything like value for money from the reported £2 billion invested annually with a fortune wasted on inefficient use of staff. I am not sure what evidence or substance this is based on as I am not quite sure what this inefficient use of staff refers to exactly.
Your rag journalist may wish to gain some facts on the pay of both police officers and nurses (not that this is particularly relevant) before publishing incorrect information regarding salaries as certainly a police officer earns far more than a firefighter.
Given both you and others that you speak to on this within the fire safety industry have such opinions I would simply ask that you gain some facts on the matter as their appears to be a lack of them reported in the press that you seem so keen to post nuggets of wisdom from.
You seem to have a beef with the salaries of full time fbu officials. This is a matter for the members who pay these salaries and not the general public. Do the salaries of other union employees flow so freely of the toungue and are that of the fbu employees so different from other unions? I dont know to be honest. I am however keen to know who is on the £400,000 that you quote as I may cancel my subs on the strength of this.
Lastly Jim, I dont work in London, in fact I dont even work in England but I will say this. Did public opinion make one difference to the war in Iraq?
I am all for everyone having an opinion Jim, I would only ask that people dont post trash that bears no resemblance to the truth.
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I think at this point we must agree to differ. The argument must remain unresolved, your opinion is entrenched with self interest and mine in ideaology. I do hope it is resolved in the interest of us all. History tells us...London Docks...now in Holland.....Car Manufacturing .....every where else other than the UK....Coal Mining.....every where else other than UK....inflexible working and excessive union monopoly power ended up in major closure. The Fire Authorities have already lost so much Fire Safety responsibility to the private sector. Essex Fire Authority is half arms length private service....This is where the real battle lines are being drawn up. The public do not like being held to ransom.
As for the FBU union officers it is of public record that they had pay and perks package in excess of £500,000 for 2008 and 2009
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I think at this point we must agree to differ. The argument must remain unresolved, your opinion is entrenched with self interest and mine in ideaology. I do hope it is resolved in the interest of us all. History tells us...London Docks...now in Holland.....Car Manufacturing .....every where else other than the UK....Coal Mining.....every where else other than UK....inflexible working and excessive union monopoly power ended up in major closure. The Fire Authorities have already lost so much Fire Safety responsibility to the private sector. Essex Fire Authority is half arms length private service....This is where the real battle lines are being drawn up. The public do not like being held to ransom.
As for the FBU union officers it is of public record that they had pay and perks package in excess of £500,000 for 2008 and 2009
HI Jim
Youve hit the nail on the head. Dont get me wrong Mr Angry is actually correct in his argument. But that matters not a jot because the public only believes whats printed in the paper or in this case the gutter press and this is exactly why the FBU should have been a bit more savvy. To strike during public hardship is simply suicidal for the very reasons you highlight Jim. I actually agree with the london firefighters and I truly understand their feelings and their plights. But London Fire Brigade Chiefs played a blinder and have won the game.This is and never has been about pay or shift patterns. Infact mostt London Firefighters need second third or even fourth jobs oto even survive in LOndon. Some even have to commute in because they dont live inb London. Cant afford it. But hey ho they coulkd do something else no one is holding a gun agaiunst their heads. And thats the argument.,