New Sign Standard

[Alan Owen]

I thankyou for your long debate and in the end I contacted our consultants and asked for further explanation. I was shown the respective parts of BS 5499, the employers guide to fire precautions and the Signs law.

There is no argument our consultant is correct.  I am amazed that with the exception of Jim Creak that you did not know this!! What sort of consultants are you?  Do you all make it up as you go along?

[dave bev]

yeah but, no but, yeah but no but, well you see, she said that it was but no but it isnt cos you see blah blah blah

almost an interesting discussion - mr owen - welcome to the world of opinion, where the test of 'reasonableness' (is that a word?) allows for a variety of solutions - so long as they are risk assessed. then it becomes a case of whether the process used and the conclusions would be able to support a justifiable defence (potentialy in a legal setting - though i certainly hope not) - i am also extremely pleased that you were able to fully understand the respective parts of bs 5499 (who told you that they were the correct respective parts?), the employers guide to fire precautions and the signs law within such a short period of time.

as for consultancy - what sort of consultants would run their business on a public forum - i would suggest it may have financial implications on their business if they did (all right i know there are other bits such as validity of answers and legal considertaions/insurance aspects to the giving of consultancy advice)

as for anyone producing and selling signs - i would expect them to know the legal requirements inside and out and therefore their answers should be considered as pretty accurate - though again i would always ask - what is opinion and what is legally required (which is different than what in their opinion is legally required!) and in what ways can that legal requirement be met (which unforunately leads back into opinion!)

in short i think youve found the 'in my opinion' part of fire safety as frustrating as those within the industry have for many years!

dave bev (who doesnt have an opinion on signs cos he doesnt know, though he does like to learn stuff!)

[Alan Owen]

Thankyou dave I think I understand..but then I'm a mere nominated person trying to make sense of it all....It would seem that you lot are a closed shop with your own agenda and politics and your own opinions based on a bunch of misinformation.

I cannot understand why you all chose to ignore British standards..what motive can there be for not considering a change to what is described as best practice.

The question I asked was so simple I just wanted to know if the advice was correct!!

Incidently I have now asked if our consultancy can supply the signs  they have informed me that they do not supply any fire safety products but recommended I go to the FPA who do.

[Chris Houston]

Alan,

I don't think there is any debate as to what is the best practise and latest guidance, the problems stem from clients who have limited budgets.  Ones who have perhaps recently installed signs which are very similar to the newer ones and who might have to choose where their funds are best spent.

It would be easy to tell everyone to upgade to the 2004 versions, but for come businesses, they need to prioritise resources and this is where the the principle of "risk assessment" is needed.

It is great to hear that you are willing and able to upgade all your signs, some clients might have felt that changing was a bit onerous given that British Standards are recommendations.

[Alan Owen]

Thank you for that explanation  ..But what I have found out is that Signs were required to be changed in 1996 not a few months ago as this forum led me to believe.

I telephoned the BSi at Chiswich who informed me that guidance on escape route signs and design standards were actually published in 2000 some 4 years ago.

The next question I have to ask is why are manufacturers not manufacturing to the Standard?

I have now been to our estates department to get the latest sign catalogues 2005 Signs and Labels to find that this major company in this business purport to conform to Standards but quite clearly do not.  This cannot be right.

If you as fire safety professionals disregard the standard it is not surprising that these companies do not care either.  What a can of worms!!

[dave bev]

cans of worms indeed!

british standards - seen some of them in my time - many bs are in fact standards to help the manufacturers compete on a level playing field and so that us mere mortals can consider them against a set or known criteria!

ps i wouldnt expect to have all your questions answered - i think theres a bs on this aswell LOL

[N.E.Body]

I thankyou for your long debate and in the end I contacted our consultants and asked for further explanation. I was shown the respective parts of BS 5499, the employers guide to fire precautions and the Signs law.

There is no argument our consultant is correct.  I am amazed that with the exception of Jim Creak that you did not know this!! What sort of consultants are you?  Do you all make it up as you go along?

Pity you didn't ask them in the first place. Looking at your email address it looks like your a fireprofessional yourself. Make it up as you go along !!!  Interesting debate but come on, when was the last prosecution for the use of bs or euro signs ?

I am sure Jim will find your comment disturbing, "questioning the integrity of other consultants"

I am sorry but this forum is used for useful debate, most of the time, it's a pity it's wasted on people looking for the easy option and can't be bothered to look up the facts for themselves . I am sure most fire safety professionals do not disregard the standards it is just that they have knowledge and a common sense approach to fire safety.

LOL

[Chris Houston]

Thank you for that explanation  ..But what I have found out is that Signs were required to be changed in 1996 not a few months ago as this forum led me to believe.

I telephoned the BSi at Chiswich who informed me that guidance on escape route signs and design standards were actually published in 2000 some 4 years ago.

The next question I have to ask is why are manufacturers not manufacturing to the Standard?

I have now been to our estates department to get the latest sign catalogues 2005 Signs and Labels to find that this major company in this business purport to conform to Standards but quite clearly do not.  This cannot be right.

If you as fire safety professionals disregard the standard it is not surprising that these companies do not care either.  What a can of worms!!

Dear Mr Owen,

I notice that your last message was posted from the same IP address that Mr Creak has also used.  Are you two friends?

[Jim Creak]

I have been asked to substantiate Mr Owens queries and yes I have on Mr Owens behalf passed on the information to this Forum. Unfortunately I am known for being a party bore on this subject and I get phone calls every day asking  for clarification it is not surprising that I would help in this manner.

[Jon Boorman]

What a discussion!  As a consultant myself I have a lot of sympathy for the consultant giving the initial advice.  I meet lots of Allan Owens, some (although very few) will want to do everything absolutely by the book and have the funds available but most want to find a way of conforming without having to beg the financial director for the budget required.  Finding this balance is key to the consultants job and where the risk assessment comes in.

Faced with a similar situation I would always advise that a uniform and consistent series of signs is required throughout the site.  This is key BUT there is also a requirement for employers to ensure that all staff understand the meaning and use of signs.  It must be demonstrated that all people who may be in the building including visitors would understand the meaning of the signs and the action to be taken.  As there is no definition given of other signs I would always recommend that BS signs are used as there is a definitive meaning written down in the standard which can be used to train all people.  However if the Allan Owen is sure that everybody understands the signs that are currently being used then there is no need to change.

[colin todd]

Can somebody just remind me what the question is? I always enjoy a good arguement, but I am afraid I have lost the plot on this rambling thread. What precisely are we arguing about?

[wee brian]

OK heres a similar question for you. If you were drafting guidance on Risk Assessment. Would you recomoned, man chasing fridge signs or BS signs?

[AnthonyB]

BS/ISO symbol, arrow and supplementary text over the fridge. Thats what signs we put pictures of in reports

[colin todd]

Normally BS signs wee B, but if they used the fridge I would not give a """""""""". Worrying about trivia is not what fire safety is about.

[wee brian]

I couldnt agree more but when your writing guidance its the trivia that causes all the problems.