fire brigade requirements

[Guest]

I am a H&S officer within a supermarket chain and have been given a remit for fire as well, thanks...!! We are opening a new store and the fire brigade in the area gave us an application for a fire cert. They now are trying to require us to alter all our fire exit signs 'cos the arrows go the wrong way'! I have checked with others and they dont think the arrows are particularily relevant (we have sprinklers to keep the people safe anyhow)!

I appreciate you will probably think I am a novice but I am looking for help and think the local brigade are wrong in this case. If we have to put up the signs can we get recompense from them?

They have said signs should comply with 'BS5499 Pt1 1990 as read with BS5499 Pt4 2000 or H&S Signs & Sig regs 1996'. Is this correct or what reference can I produce to make them go away and leave us alone.

[Chris Houston]

I think you need reconsider your stance.  You can't reply on sprinklers alone, I suspet you had to install them due to size of the fire compartment, people still need to know how to get out.

My advice would be to take their advice.  The fire escape signs are vitally important, think about it, do you want to send people the wrong way?

[AnthonyB]

Let me guess - you've got down pointing arrows at storey and final exits which mean go down, instead of up arrow which mean straight ahead or up.

Or is it that you have the situation that I sometimes see where a door you go through to exit (i.e. should be an up arrow) has a left or right directional arrow just because thats the direction you go after going through the door - if so then it is very wrong and needs changing.

A lot of poor signage is the fault of emergency light manufacturers who insist on only manufacturing the poorly understood Eurogram with a down arrow for almost everything and who obviously haven't heard of diagonal stairs as they don't make diagonal arrowed fascias. (Classic TV example used to be the basement club in Eastenders where if you believed the exit box, which would be one of the brightest things left in a power failure/smoke you try to go down to the cellar not up the stairs)

Whoever specified the signs should have got it right in the first place, it isn't rocket science. Get a signage guide from the MeansofEscape.com website - don't be distracted by the Jalite Sign advert/catalogue bit, they are very clear and easy to understand guides to MoE and other fire signage placement, I dish them out all over the place

[Guest]

The most important thing about this whole debate is that conformance to  the Standards for Fire safety communication is essential and not open for debate. The reason for the Standard is to reduce the risk of confusion. International Legislation requires a unified method of identification of Escape Routes. This is so that it can be taught,learnt and understood. WHY? So we all know what it means. It is not open to question change or individual opinion a single meaning is essential to effective communication.
It really does matter and you should conform to the Standard..non conformance can be deemed negligent in a court of law.

[Simon Morriss]

Can I recommend you visit the FPA web site as their information on signs is free to download.

http://www.thefpa.co.uk/pdf/firesafetysigns.pdf

Simon

[colin todd]

Changing downward pointing arrows to upward is puerile and pointless. IT can wait until the signs are needing replaced.

[wee brian]

I'm with Colin on this. Its only people with a copy of the code in their hands that know which way the arrow needs to point.

unless they are actually confusing to the general public leave them alone.

[Guest]

Sorry guys but I disagree..
If they are installed correctly, we can train staff to use them in the correct manner, they may need to use them when all else fails or are in a situation away from their regular place of work etc.

If we install them correctly in schools then the education at an early age can be achieved and developed.

A thought though, if in a fire situation with reduced or limited visibility you see an exit sign above a door, with direction arrow pointing down, head for it and using your training to the correct standard open the door and tentatively try to find the stair or ramp, you will slow down the evacuation. Surely the intention of these sign is as an aid to evacuation and not meant as a hinderance.

If on the other hand were someone to fall down a set of stairs when the sign didnt indicate the possibility of level change, would there be grounds for litigation??

[Ken Taylor]

If it's the 'down instead of up' issue, I've probably seen more wrong than right and my inclination is to agree with Colin. All other incorrect arrows would be misunderstood by users and must be changed.

[colin todd]

Of people are egressing through such thick smoke, an awful lot of other things must have gone wrong, and they will be lucky if a sign saves them, whether it has as many arrows a john wayne film and regardless of whether they point north south east or west. I agree its nice to get it right, but i cant lose sleep about those that dont for the moment.

[AnthonyB]

Can I recommend you visit the FPA web site as their information on signs is free to download.

http://www.thefpa.co.uk/pdf/firesafetysigns.pdf

Simon

Thats not information - it's just a sales catalogue with no real guidance.

In fact it's a Jalite signs catalogue! If you were to get the signage guide from meansofescape.com you would get the catalogue at the back but more importantly many pages of well illustrated guidance based on BS5499

[Guest]

Why cant i find a copy of this signage guide?

[AnthonyB]

Send me an address and I'll pop a copy in the post to you

[Guest]

Absolutely agree with Mr Todd on this one.

The fact that a fire exit sign points down rather than up to signal the escape route is ahead is not a problem.

Ive been to countless places where this is the case...people have enough common sense to realise it means "go straight on" as there a re no stairs present to descend!!!

Naturally if a sign points left when you should go righty well thats different and when standing up in front of the judge you would find it hard to argue why you didnt correct the signage!