Author Topic: Key Skills Training  (Read 36045 times)

Offline fireftrm

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« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2007, 01:29:40 PM »
The PQA wasn't flawed the butcher's son's answers were. There is nothing in any PQA, its constructs, or potential questions that would require the respondent to have interaction/experience of working with ethnic minorities. The questions never ask anything that specific, the question would have been along he lines of 'can you provide an example of where you have accepted other people's differences', or such. He will have loads of examples, but was clearly looking for ones that relate to ethnic minority groups, wrongly. He will, I can't see anyway that he wouldn't, deal with many different groups day-to-day. Such as young single mothers, young women generally, aged persons, people with special dietary requirements, different suppliers, different members of staff, other shopkeepers, people he meets socially. All of these provide perfect examples of working and accepting other's differences. He 'hasn't any opportunity to get in contact with people from different backgrounds simply because of where he lives and works'?????? I would like to give an impolite response, but will refrain.

Many Ffs I know have tried the online test too, and failed to demonstrate the right qualities. Usually it is because they try too hard to read into the question what the response required is. They try to bull their way through, as you put it. It doesn't work. Look again at the questions and read the answers first, if you still fail to pick the right ones then you would fail to get in now, and rightly so. I strongly recommend anyone trying to pooh-pooh the PQAs to read www.fireserive.co.uk, the recruitment section and the bulletin board. Here many examples of the system and its application have been discussed, including a thread on the online sample questions and serving people's answers. Look and learn.

Now as to none of the 4 asked said they were questioned on why they want to be in the service? So what? The question is one that never determined the right person for the job; it just showed those who could answer with great positive statements of public servitude, social awareness etc. So the people who used to get through the interviews were generally those with the best 'gift of the gab'. Now whom do you think do best at PQAs? Surprisingly those who can best articulate.  One advantage to the remainder, however, is that the PQAs are out there printed, published, well discussed and easy to study, unlike the interview with no structure.  

There are also some points I would like to make about the five potential recruits, to you particularly Retty. Firstly they took the tests, failed and have now lost interest. Seems to me they were not the sort of people we would have wanted then. We need staff who can see that they have areas that need development and want to work for us, a setback like failing to get in and being allowed to re-apply should be motivating them to seek feedback on where they didn't do well, where they did and then development to succeed the next time. It appears that they expected to get in on a nod as they were able to provide RDS cover, not because they were able to do the job. Secondly they obviously received no real assistance for the staff at the station in preparing them for the tests, that is one of the first places that they should have been getting help from, if the station is short staffed and really wanted those individuals. The butcher’s son especially if he is as potentially valuable to the station n s you say. The examples of the new tests are out there, help in preparing them would have been easy to give, directing them to websites as a bare minimum. Look at fireservice.co.uk's forum and you will see that PQA use for other RDS is working and that keen applicants get hep from the board members regularly. (I have personal experience of helping an RDS applicant in a Yorks service - by email and phone - he got in). Lastly the new tests have been extended to all applicants, irrespective of the duty system, based on the fact that all are now firefighters, not WDS/RDS. If you wish to return to the 'two legs, eyes and arms, lives close enough and can breathe, less trained and respected' retained firefighter of the past, please start a campaign. But I won't support you, nor, I suspect will the vast majority of your peers and certainly not the recent RDS entrants who now have the same entrance tests, NVQs and thus opportunities for progression as the WDS. Indeed entering the RDS and serving there until competent and then requesting a duty system transfer is likely to be a good way into a WDS job. Encouraging and supporting applicants should be a key issue for any RDS manager (and I mean CM and WM on the RDS not leaving this as an HQ only problem). That they can offer applicants a potential career path that was previously unknown should be a boon, you will find that the majority of RDS transferees to WDS remain RDS on their days off.

We are using the new tests and have a similar failure rate to that of the prior tests, then as now those who failed and never came back were considered to have been well lost.
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline johno67

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« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2007, 07:52:33 PM »
A useful little exercise if anyone is still not sure how the PQA's work.

Using the following link to obtain the PQA's for the role of Fire-fighter:

http://www.ipds.co.uk/public/site/newsdocs29/Firefighter%20PQAs.pdf

Compare the different elements against the postings made by 'London' in the General Interest Section of this site under 'RFU fail to take their seat'.

May I suggest you concentrate on:
Commitment to diversity & integrity;
Working with others; and
Effective communication.

Anyway, about my key skills?
Likes to play Devil's Advocate

Offline fireftrm

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« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2007, 08:08:06 AM »
I have been surprised by the lack of discussion that the issue of key skills, or skills for life, for fire service staff has brought. We do have some fairly definite needs amongst our staff and ignoringthem does the serivce no good at all. Indeed we have senior managers, in some areas, who say 'we have no one who can't read, or write' an attitude that demonstrates a complete failure to understand what is meant by the key/basic skills issue. What is actually the levels of some staff is well above 'can't read', but is below that required to support a Level 3 occupation, that identified in our NOS and that the individuals should be developed to achieve for their own life success (such as being able to help the kids with homework, easily carry out discount calculations for purchases). As well as the pre-exisitng skill levels that are cross mapped in our NOS we have the government's targets to have everyone with Level 2 qualifications in Literacy and Numeracy and Level 1 in ICT, these happen to be the same as those in our NOS, so we should be developing all our staff to those levels. We should also be determining their skill existing level as a normal part of personnel development, if we don't we cannot provide the correct support.
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Midland Retty

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« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2007, 09:41:05 AM »
Well fireftrm can you explain why the brigade told the butcher's son that he hadn't got enough cultural diversity particularly with regard to mixing /interaction with persons of an ethnic background? I think its taken for red that as a butcher you will mix with different type of people in terms of age, dietry requirement etc.

Can you also explain why the situational awareness entry level exam is catching people out?

Have you gone through the process itself and see why it is making people loose intrest in droves in an area (im talking retained personnel here) which is difficult to recruit in anyway

Im sure those people would try again if they were going for a full time post. But they can't be bothered giving up time and time again in a lengthy process which isnt going to be their primary employment.

They dont have the time to hold down a full time job get child minders etc only to keep having to take days off time and time again to sit contencious exams and try to phathom out PQAs

It isnt working fireftrm... is causing to much confusion within the general public.

And the fact that existing Ffs are alo taking the test and failing has to tell you something or are you seriously telling me they should never have got in in the first place?

Here's another one for you

One of our potential recruits sat the entry level physcometic test

A question was asked - what you feel if a muslim gentleman was newly employed by the company would you be 1: extremely happy 2. Fairly happy 3. Neither happy or unhappy 4. Not happy 5. Outraged

She ansdwered no.3 - her reasoning being that whilst she has no problem with people of different faiths to be "extremely happy" (which seems the obvious) answer is patronising, false and in one one sense discrimnatory because if a white christian person was employed, a black afro carribean person was employed, a jew was employed she woyuld answer no.3 - in other words she'd treat people the same, she wouldnt make a big fuss of someone by being "exteremly happy" as this may patronise the ethnic minority person in question and mean s/he is treated differently to everyone else if she would normally answer no,3 if anyone else was employed.

Of course the answer the brigade was looking for (and they tell us there is no right or wrong answers - rubbish - was 1." and she was told as much by opone of the instructors.

He said "it gets you more points"

Sorry fireftrm if it was run properly then fine but its not a nd people feel tests like this are designed to catch them out and it confuses them.

Yes they do try to hard why do you think that is I wonder?!

Im all for a diverse, responsible and respectful workforce but you can't achieve it this way. Im sorry but you cant.

Offline Big T

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« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2007, 02:42:40 PM »
To be honest I think the PQA's are the only element of the testing that decides whether you are the right person for the job rather than being able to do the job. If i'm totally honest (and without age being an issue) I am not surprised that a retired officer with 25 years service is not the right person to join the modern service.

I am not suggesting for one minute that retired firman are unlikely to embrace new working practices be racist or anti gay. But I bet deep down you are (outrage to follow no doubt) PQA's surely demonstrate how your childhood conditionong will allow you to be part of a multi cultural crew working in a multicultural community in the future. Is being "extremely happy" a muslim has joined your crew patronising? Not at all. Surely you should be extremely happy that anyone has joined your crew? Rather than the old school "lets initiate him/her and see how they cope, then give them crap for 6 months and then decide if we are happy they are on our crew or not"

The brigade know who they want on their books. And they believe the PQA's go someway to finding them. The only people who dislike the PQA's are those who can't pass them or know people who haven't passed them. Just like A levels, Car theory tests, Gun licenses etc etc.

Midland Retty

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« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2007, 03:20:55 PM »
I am not suggesting for one minute that retired firman are unlikely to embrace new working practices be racist or anti gay. But I bet deep down you are (outrage to follow no doubt) PQA's surely demonstrate how your childhood conditionong will allow you to be part of a multi cultural crew working in a multicultural community in the future. Is being "extremely happy" a muslim has joined your crew patronising? Not at all. Surely you should be extremely happy that anyone has joined your crew? Rather than the old school "lets initiate him/her and see how they cope, then give them crap for 6 months and then decide if we are happy they are on our crew or not"

Well exactly Big T we are basically saying the same thing aren't we?

And why couldnt a retired fire officer who has probably undertaken many diversity courses, has worked within I diverse community not be re-employed then if we go on your argument Big T?

Offline Big T

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« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2007, 03:34:03 PM »
I am not suggesting someone couldn't. But as the results of the PQA suggest in this particular instance the gent isn't suitable!

I think this particular failure demonstrates more that the PQA's work rather than them not working. It shows that the personal attributes required in a modern brigade have changed but the physical requirement has not. Hence the pass in the physical and mental side but a failure in the PQA

Midland Retty

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« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2007, 04:14:55 PM »
PQA's is the mental side of it surely

If a firefighter is still physically fit on retirement, has worked in a brigade that has diversified, evolved to suit the needs of the community to which it serves why couldn't that firefighter go back into employment?

I accept if the firefighter has been retired say 5 years plus then maybe the brigade has progressed further than when he/she left it but this is totally my point... PQAs aren't working (well not in the two brigades I work for)

Why is it that station commanders have had to sit down and coach new applicants on the correct way of filling in the application form to ensure they score well.

Surely this totally defeats the object and shows PQAs aren't working the way the should.

Im not saying they should be scrapped, im just saying they need to be reviewed.

Offline pokkav

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« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2007, 04:20:13 PM »
I can't read the correspondence from Big T without replying.

 Far from being racist or anti-gay, I now work in an organisation where my manager is a Hindu lady, and my work colleagues, mostly female, include muslims, christians, agnostics, lesbians, transgender, gay, and many different nationalities.
 I deal with the public on a daily basis, and they are also a very wide mix of people.  I have had far more contact with a wider range of people than Big T or most other people will ever have, and I'm sure I would be given excellent references by my Hindu manager if asked for.

The PQA has failed because if it shows me to be unsuitable when I know I'm not, as do all of the Wholetime and Retained firefighters on the day crewing station I hope to rejoin.

It is also going to fail the Fire Service as a whole by only allowing through people who give insincere answers; honesty and integrity will be the loser.

Offline Mike Buckley

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« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2007, 04:39:29 PM »
To get another view see the article in Octobers Fire Prevention Fire Engineers Journal "Safety by Appointment" by Mike Dennett.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it.

Offline fireftrm

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« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2007, 08:30:56 PM »
It is taken for read that a butcher would have experience of different types of people in terms of age etc? Is it? Who by? Not the FRS. Unless your butcher’s son has written feedback from the FRS that he didn’t get a good enough PQA score because of a lack of experience with ethnic minorities I would suggest that he has completely failed to grasp what they meant by having failed to give a sufficient example of working with/accepting diverse groups, or is simply lying. The PQA questions (and I have seen them) do not include any that are specific about ethnic minorities, rather they are about working with people from different backgrounds. One of the parts of the PQA is written as “Maintains an open approach with others, taking account of, and accepting, individual differences such as age, ethnicity, gender, religious beliefs, social background, disability, sexual orientation and physical appearance

Can you also explain why the situational awareness entry level exam is catching people out?

Yes, they are not the people we want in, the test catches out people who do not demonstrate an awareness of the environment around them. It presents the applicant with questions that relate to situations they may find themselves in as a firefighter, based on safety to themselves and others around them.

As to the process, I know it well, I can understand why some may be put off, but it does better show us the quality of the new entrant. We now apply the same standards, rightly, to RDS across the board. As I said before changing this would mean putting the RDS back as second class and should also mean a different role map and pay structure. Now what do you think about that? I am sure that many would be happy to consider your proposals to downgrade the RDS Firefighter role. If people wish to join just to go to some fires in their local community and not have to go through the full process to get in then they should be better informed before they apply, sorry.
 
It isn’t going to be  a full time job?.

It is still going to be a job as a firefighter, with the same hourly rate and role standards. We must use the same application process, why should we use a lesser one for part time employees, it isn’t fair to them, it isn’t right fore the organisation and it certainly isn’t right for the tax payer.

Time to apply?

Well then they need better advice about the process and if the FRS is finding the issue of applicants not being able to have the time to do the tests then that should eb looked at – weekend tests for example.

Not working and confusion within the general public?

The general public will not know anything about the process now, nor that we had before, why should they and why should they???? Not working? Well there are many FRS out there who are gaining new RDS staff and the new process hasn’t stopped that. Refer to www.fireservice.co.uk forums and the number of RDS applicants who are treating the job and its application process sensibly. The new system is working, sorry that it didn’t for your applicants, but they obviously weren’t of the standard we now require. I do have experience of the RDS and can state as fact that a lot of previous RDS entrants were taken on simply because they could provide the availability not because they were suited to the job.

ffs taking the test and failing, should they not have got in? Possibly yes. What we now require of a FF is different from that of the past.

Here's another one for you

One of our potential recruits sat the entry level physcometic test

A question was asked - what you feel if a muslim gentleman was newly employed by the company would you be 1: extremely happy 2. Fairly happy 3. Neither happy or unhappy 4. Not happy 5. Outraged

Sorry that isn’t the way that the NFQ works. There are no questions at all in it. They are all statements to which you answer one of 5 responses, from strongly agree to strongly disagree. The statement would have been along the lines of ‘A muslim person has started work at your company which makes me happy’ Once again I feel that the story you are being given does not really match what would have been the real example. Even with the example she has provided you getting a middle score would not be a fail, the test would not have been lost on that so it is a pointless example of the new tests being wrong in more way than one.

I am amazed that you haven’t thought about how to help these people succeed next time, rather than look at what the tests really consist of and how to assist them to develop. It seems that blaming the test for these people’s inability to pass them is your only answer


Pokkav - you still have completely missed the point, tell us the examples you gave to the questions you were asked rather than, just as Midland Retty, blame the process. You must have given answers that demonstrated greater negative than positive evidence of the required personal qualities and attributes that we look for in a firefighter. Stop hiding behind 'the PQA process is wrong' and tell us how - by example. The PQA has failed because it shows you to be unsuitable and you know you aren't? Well that's a great argument which we will obviously completely agree with, after all you are the very best person to determine whether you have the right qualities and attributes, self belief is great, but being the right person is usually left ot others to decide. I hope your system could be employed because I know I am the right person to be a CFO, or the CEO of a major blue chip company, if I take the tests and interviews and don't get the job clearly it will be their processes that will be wrong.
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline toidi

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« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2007, 08:16:00 AM »
The Fire Service truly has gone mad throughout the UK if some of these posts are anything to go by and I will try and put this as simply as possible!

AS A TAXPAYER, I WANT MY FIRE SERVICE TO BE ABLE TO FIGHT FIRES, ATTEND RTC's, WATER RESCUES AND OTHER EMERGENCIES.

I WANT THEM TO BE ABLE TO  DO THAT SAFELY AND PROFESSIONALLY, AND TRAIN FOR IT MORE THAN THEY WRITE ABOUT IT !

MYSELF, AND MY FRIENDS WHO ARE STILL IN THE JOB WANT TO FEEL THAT KEY SKILLS ARE THE SAME AS THEY WERE 20 YEARS AGO, AND UNTIL FIRES BURN DIFFERENTLY, BUILDINGS COLLAPSE DIFFERENTLY, AND PEOPLE DROWN DIFFERENTLY- THEY WILL BE THE SAME.

SO BEFORE YOU EVEN THINK ABOUT TRAINING PEOPLE FOR "THEIR OWN LIFE SUCCESS" SO THEY CAN HELP KIDS WITH THEIR HOMEWORK, MAKE SURE THEY CAN DO THE JOB MY TAXES PAY THEM TO DO, BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW THEY COULD DO IT BETTER, IF THEY WERE ALLOWED  TO!

Offline Big T

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« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2007, 09:09:03 AM »
Quote from: pokkav
It is also going to fail the Fire Service as a whole by only allowing through people who give insincere answers; honesty and integrity will be the loser.
To say that the only people who pass the PQA are insincere and dishonest is outrageous.

If you feel that in order for you to pass the PQA you must lie, then I would question why you are joining.

Lie then. Get in. happy days. All that would prove is that the PQA can be cheated. So can all tests.

Not getting a job, especially when its one you can do standing on your head is always dissapointing. But being able to do a job, and being the right person for the job are 2 very different things.

Offline johno67

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« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2007, 12:40:11 PM »
Does anyone really believe that the PQA's themselves are flawed?

Can anyone honestly say that there is a single element in any of the PQA's http://www.ipds.co.uk/public/site/newsdocs29/Firefighter%20PQAs.pdf  that they disagree with, and would not want someone that they were employing as a Firefighter to possess?

I think the PQA's themselves are an excellent benchmark against which to judge both people applying to join the service and being promoted within it.

I think the problems start when people are unaware of what they are being judged against. I do believe that guidance should be published showing people exactly what each element of the PQA's means. Once everybody is sure of exactly what is expected of them, I think that most of the problems mentioned here would have been addressed.

With the scenario based questions, I agree that people can respond using answers that they think the assessors want to see, but even if this is the case, it shows that they are aware of how they should be acting, and surely that is what development is all about.
As an example: I take the assessment, answering the questions purely on what I would do in each situation, I fail, receive feedback on where I need development, I go away address that development, take the test again and hopefully pass.

Secondly, I think that the evidence that people provide should be investigated in every case to see if it is indeed true and accurate. This would hopefully address the problem of people potentially lying on their application forms and in interviews. (It is done if you provide a reference for a job or want to take out a mobile phone contract etc).

On the subject of 'If I was suitable to be employed as a firefighter 30 years ago then I must be suitable now', then I would have to say that this may well not be the case.

The Fire Service has changed dramatically over the past few years and I believe that so have the qualities that we need of our Firefighters. When I joined it was the case that you had to be able to read and write but everything else was physical (fitness, strength, determination etc). And I spent many happy years fighting fires in city centre stations loving every minute of it.

But now, and this is where my original question comes in regarding key skills, the Firefighter is expected to have qualities that were not previously required.

The whole modernisation agenda seems to have passed a number of people by.

The Fire & Rescue Services Act 2004 places Fire Safety above Fire-fighting, Road Traffic Collisions and Other Emergencies. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2004/20040021.htm
The National Framework Document makes it abundently clear that 'Fire Prevention' is our primary concern.
http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/fire/pdf/144884
It runs very much in line with Risk Assessment:
Ensure that fires don't occur in the first place; (same for RTC's etc) (PREVENT)
If they do occur then ensure that the consequences are minimised; (PROTECT) and finally
Fight the fire (RESPOND)

We should now be looking at each fire as a failure somewhere in the system, and trying to address that failure (which in fairness most of us are). The Hong Kong Fire Service were doing this many years ago and most of us probably sniggered at their approach (As we did with the Swedish Fire Service approach to gas cooling prior to Blaina)

The key skills/basic skills come into play here:
Communication - (mirrored by the PQA Effective Communication) for going out into the communities that we serve and educating them in fire safety. Talking to other stakeholders in the partnerships that we are involved in etc.
Application of Number - we are now required to work with data and statistics to identify where our problems are, where do the fires occur, who is most at risk, at what times do they occur etc
Information Technology - virtually all of the work that we do in this area depends on some form of IT application

And you may say that this is all the work of watch officers and that's what they get paid for, not anymore, it's everyones job now.

The other 3 (wider) key skills are:
Working with others (mirrored by Working with Others PQA) which we are usually very good at.
Improving Own Learning and Performance (mirrored by Commitment to Develpment in the PQA's) relates to my earlier point about looking at where you need development and addressing it.
Problem Solving (again mirrored in the PQA's by Problem Solving)

The Government is trying to raise the standards, especially in the first three of these key skills, amongst the workforce of the UK so that we can compete with other countries in Europe and the rest of the world. If you go onto the Key Skills websites you will see numerous examples of different organisations who are rising to this challenge (for example NHS staff including cleaners etc). I believe that we will also have to meet this challenge if we are to be held in the high regard that we currently are.
Reading some of the postings on this site (Check out 'London' on the 'General Interest' section of this site under 'RFU fail to take their seat') I think that we do have members within the service today who come nowhere near meeting the PQA's.

I also agree that we do still need firefighters that are highly trained, fit and motivated to carry out the operational side of the role, and I believe that someone who meets the PQA's and has the physical capabilites would be ideal for that role

NOT ASKING FOR MUCH ARE WE?
Likes to play Devil's Advocate

Offline fireftrm

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« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2007, 02:39:59 PM »
Quite agree johno67.

I am also very dismayed that toidi can't see the correlation between key skills (meaning iof the person not the job) are required to do any job. The firefighter who can't add upo the mileage totals, or fuel, for the appliance (don't say you haven't come across this) is not providingt he very best service. If he/she is also afraid of some of the literacy requirements, like reading ands understanding complex instructions, or filling in a form that is no help either. Now you will no doubt say that form filling isn't a job a Ff should be doing, they should be fighting fires. Not true. Take the hazmats incident, ff working as Command Support will be taking down infirmation form Control, suing written procedures and filling in forms for use in that role. A vital role too. Then what about the BAECO, literacy and numeracy skills required. Like it, or not, the firefighter's job is not only practical, the key skills of numberacy, literacy, comunication adn ICT use are underpinning their role, that developing them also assists their general life skills and perhaps their family life is a bonus. Usingt he 'head-in-the-sand' attitude you have does the profession, the public and yourself no favour.

To paraphrase "SO BEFORE YOU EVEN THINK ABOUT TRAINING PEOPLE FOR THE JOB MY TAXES PAY THEM TO DO MAKE SURE THEY HAVE THE NECESSARY KEY SKILLS, BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW THEY COULD DO IT BETTER, IF THEY WERE GIVEN THE UNDERLYING SKILLS"
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!