Author Topic: Transfering from Retained to Wholetime  (Read 34672 times)

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Transfering from Retained to Wholetime
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2004, 10:18:29 PM »
It would appear from the comments on the message board that no one seems to know where this one is going.
One minute we are being told by the FBU that when the IPDS -(idly piddly diddly squat) kicks in and we are maintaing our competency skills, whether we are Retained or Wholetime, we are classified as Community Fire Fighters on different Shift Patterns.  
There will always be the dinasour element who will still refer to the Retained as PART TIME.  

Should we try a different approach under the umbrella of "Family Friendly working conditions " to reduce the hours of the Retained element and transfer to Wholetime?

Is it not the case now  for the "Wholetime" who provide 42 hours a week cover, against the average 120 hours of a Retained Fire Fighter, should in fact be addressed as Part Time?

Whats the view of the RFU?  anybody wish to comment?

Offline fireftrm

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« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2004, 11:53:24 AM »
Cod

When IPDS kicks in? It is in. The new Grey book makes that clear, so does the fact that we are now being paid by our roles - without IPDS then we cannot be assessed against these role maps, nor can we have PDRs and PDPs. Any FRS not doing this now should have the union on their backs.

Dinosaurs calling RT Part-time? Well actually it is the confused only. Part-time has only just appeared as a duty system! Retained is still there as another, along with the existing shift and day duty systems. Retained is not part-time it is another system.

The 120 hours cover against 42 argument...... a spin doctor's attempt I suggest. The 42 hour duty system is one where the employee is at work for the 42 hours (whether on a 2 day 2 night - 8 day cycle, day duty, day crewing, or flexi-duty system). The 120 hour duty system is on-call only, not at work, and with a 2 hour commitment to attend for training/assessment. Good try, but don't go applying for Alastair Campbell's job just yet.

The RFU opinion? Well that I await with interest, after all they have been very vociferous in negotiations on the pay for retained, the duty systems, the inclusion of 2 x 24 hours completely free of duty - leading to the full cover now being 120 hours, taking legal challenges on the pension and IPDS. Also they are well ahead of the game on RT to WT and WT to RT issues. Or have I got them confused with another body?
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline Phil

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« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2004, 07:59:53 PM »
HI

  I joined the RT service 5 years ago,I had to do written tests,physical,and a medical.They placed me on to a two year program.In which i hadto complete the same competence based program as a WT would do within hi 15 weeks training.At present i do not know if i will have a fulltime job as i may be being made redundant.So i asked for a transfer from RT to WT, I was told i could not transfer as the ipds was not in yet in our service.What i need to know is if any service in this country are taking transfers from RT to WT.

Which service?
And what are the polices and proceedures?
If poss can i have a copy off the above polices and proceedures?

        Thankyou for your help

Phil

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« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2004, 08:14:08 PM »
I am a rt ff and yesterday I tried to apply for the position of a wt ff within our brigade as I was under the impression that we are now all classed as competent firefighters, I was told by our personnel dept that I could not apply as the wt and ret have different selection procedures.

well dont different brigades also have various type of selection? and yet they are accepting applications from transferees.

Once again the ret is second best in the eyes of the brigade and the union.
so much for parity and equal oppertunites.

Although I have heard that some brigades at last are recruiting from retained,lets hope that it is the start of things to come.

Offline Phil

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« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2004, 08:35:09 PM »
Hi

   I would of thought with the amount of interest on this page we would of at least got a message from the fbu or even the rfu.But even the reps i have asked have not taken this on or ever come back to me at all on the subject,Which in turn makes me question why am i in the union?

I would not mind if this was a isolated case,But it is not.So i suggest any body who has any story to tell successful or not please send me it.And i will collate all information up and when i have some thing i will e-mail you all.
     I look forward to hearing from you.

                                                        Phil :?

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« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2005, 04:24:30 PM »
phil, sorry to burst your bubble but this site is not the proper place for the fbu to make statements. i do so as an individual, and at times run the risk of falling foul of the rule book, but so far have managed to stay on the right side of an etremely thin line!

can i suggest that you put your concerns/comments/questions in writing and send them into head office fbu, assuming you are a member, and ask for a reply from the retained ec member,at the same time as sending copies for the same action to your brigade and regional reps (who should always be the first port of call). if you dont receive a reply then you could forward that to the national officers at the fbu to ask why no-one has replied?

hope it helps in terms of understanding the position, as for asking for info from brigades, why not write to them aswell, in particular your own brigade??

dave bev

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2005, 05:37:00 PM »
Sorry to intrude on this thread, which I know nothing about, but I just had to admire the professional stance, Davey. Equally, I just hope you are not getting too conventional and boring. The world needs radicals intent on overthrowing democratic govenment! Very best wishes for the new year!!!
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline fireftrm

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« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2005, 06:35:00 PM »
Phil

Very sensible answers from Dave, as expected.

As to your 'sucesses' perhaps a question that you could pose to your representaive body, they may well know where these have occured, indeed should. They may not be in any position to divulge that information on here as it may well form part of local negotiations.

Beleive me it has happened, ask the rep. bodies and also your management - now there is a thought they know don't they?
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline crash and burn

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« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2005, 11:48:46 PM »
hi,
i've been down this line myself. I used to be a DFS Firefighter (7yrs) and retained (10 yrs). I decided to join the wholetime but had to start at the same place as everybody else.....the application form! I was lucky and managed to get a job. But i still had to do a 16 week recruits course and be a probi/ unqualified for 4 yrs. Not sure what the score is now but it doesn't seem to have changed much!

Offline firedaven41

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« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2005, 12:17:04 AM »
Being retained in kent myself, i have come across this problem of wanting to transfer WT. The thing is, no matter which station you are on, and which FRS you are in, retained guys are very hard to replace! Especially if you are retained during the day. This could be a big part of the problem, with brigades not wanting to create more problems for themselves. I dont know how this fits in with the rest of the country, but 44 of the 66 stations in Kent are retained, so compromising appliance manning is simply not an option.

Offline rips

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« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2005, 07:21:00 AM »
Just to let you know about Tyne & Wear FRS who have looked at a Retained firefighter transferring into a W/T position. A training needs analysis was carried out, the outcome was that the individual was lacking in several areas especially the technical knowledge. I believe it was decided that a full course was required to bring the individual up to the required standard.
Most of TWFRS retained firefighters have a transfer in to joi the W/T.
Any views I express are my own and not my employers. Still confused!

H&W

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« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2005, 10:52:52 PM »
Im retained myself so I know where a lot of you are coming from, I cant believe though how some people think they have the right to transfer to WT purely because theyre RET. Just one of the obvious problems would surely be the RET training program.. As an average, the amount of training time over the YEAR would be in the region of 60-70 hours (think about it and tote up the actual time training, not standard tests etc), WT would of got in over 80hrs in less than 10 weeks...

Offline Frankie

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« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2005, 09:28:52 AM »
fireftrm. I haven't read the whole of this discussion. I get the impression that you haven't experience of being a RT firefighter. I live and work in a rural area and lot's of rural areas are covered by RT personnel. We do frequent CFS and also fire safety visits. I also note that someone has stated "waste of money" for bringing the RT in on standby. Well, our nearest WT station is 10 miles away. We are the closest station with sufficient RT staff to standby on a regular basis. This usually happens when both WT appliances are sent out.

I don't believe that the WT - RT transfer is a viable option at the present moment in time however I can't see it being long.

Many times i've been on jobs and had WT staff to work alongside and they ask are you WT? If they can't tell the difference then that's definitely a positive step towards RT to WT.

On another point whoever was talking about 120 hours RT/48 hours WT cover.... It's not exactly the same is it. You're not on station 120 hours per week!

Offline fireftrm

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« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2005, 08:07:40 AM »
Frankie

I don't know what gave the impression that I don't understand the retained? Everything I have written is from experience, both in my present role as a SM, T/GM at this moment, managing 6 RT and one DC/RT station in a very rural area covering 2,000 Km2. Before joining WT, which I have been for 15 years, I was a RT Ff with 5 years experience. Most, and by no means all, of the RT in my area do CS (note we long ago dropped the F as our strategy is the safety of our community in all areas). None do FS visits, indeed you are the first example I have come across of RT carrying out legislative inspections, many WT no longer do this. If you look you will see me arguing that RT should/can transfer to WT but would do so with some development needs, I gave CS and FS as examples, that was all. Now how does that marry with your suggestion that I have no experience of your role, I rather believe I am well qualified to comment and do so with confidence.

I do believe that the transfer is a viable option and have just seen 4 of my RT staff do just that. Along with another 8 colleagues from around the service they are on a 2 week induction, which includes soem CS and FS input. Fortunatley for me they are also going to carry on some RT commitment as they are form areas where we have diffciulty recruiting, one of the reasons for my suggestion that the transfers may improve RT recruitment is that this having ahppened is giving us another tool to encourage RT staff.

It was me that said bringing the RT in to standby is a waste of money - but if you look you will see that I was refering to staff on the same station as the WT. We utilise next stations for stnadby cover, which obvioulsy means a retained appliance will cover our DC station if both there are out, no problem, not a waste. But if the DC pump is out the RT staff are not brought in, this would be a waste of money. It would also disrupt their full time employment, with many employers unhappy to have their staff brought in to the station just to await further calls and do non-incident work for us while there. One such employer is opposite the station and used to find this very galling when we did it, around 15 years ago.

I agree about the professionalism of RT staff, especially at incidents, but also in other areas. In my experience they are enthusiastic about their role and the service.

You also make, or attempt to make, some point about the 120 v 42  hour duty. I think you were agreeing with me but it wasn't clear. One poster suggested that the WT Ff should be referred to as Part-time because they only do 42 hours and was upset that RT were so referred to by some. I made the entirley accurate response that the 120 hours is on-call and the 42 hours is at work, thus they are different duty systems and made clear what RT should be called. I stand by that and feel it is unquestionable and am glad that you appear to be on my side, thanks!
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline mark

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« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2005, 10:18:00 PM »
Looking back over this topic there has been some good point thrown into the pot.I am currently pressing my brigade on this subject but once again have been fobbed of by the HR manager who said i should call him to discuss this further yet strangely enough he is now on leave for 2 months.

I beleive that Dave Bev mentioned speaking with Union reps as they should be aware of any progress that has been made on this, that avenue i tried but appears that my station rep does not want to ask this question.

I thought i would try the ODPM to see if they could pull some wool over my eyes or provide me with a response and below is the response i got

I was interested to receive your e-mail regarding you being unsuccessful in your
transition from retained duty system to wholetime within your Fire and rescue
Service.

As set out in the National Framework, all fire and rescue services will make
appointments on the basis of merit and open competition and employ best practice
in the operation of appointment and promotion for all staff in line with legal
requirements and the principles of IPDS.