RR(FS)O - how many will actually comply

[Bluefire1]

In some ways I have been fortunate in serving during the period I did. I joined just as the FPA was coming in and saw the transition from the old FA and OSRA formats to the FPA certificates and the inclusion of new premises. I saw the transition from the FSO drawing the red lines on a plan to handing it over to building control, and after 30+ years in the job, I had made my way up through inspecting officer to a Section Head in policy and development. Even as I left 2 years ago to take up as a Fire Risk Consultant, we were still finding premises that after 30 years of FPA didn't have fire certificates (never applied), that almost 70% of premises hadn't carried out a risk assessment either under MHSW Regs or the FP(W) Regs and Section 10 notices were being issued more frequently. In most cases the Authority was unable or unwilling to take legal action against them.

With the introduction of the RR(FS)O and the abandonment of inspections/certificates as we know then, how many 'reponsible persons' will carry out a full fire risk audit and risk assessment and how many will/can understand the principles of means of esacpe etc (even with the guides) that will keep standards where they are under FPA. ODPM whilst saying "you should seek expert help in complex circumstances" seem convinced that the majority of FRA's can be carried out by the occupier with the help of the guides. My personal opinion is that standards will drop and the number of non-complient premises will increase.

Any one agree or disagree

[kurnal]

You have hit it right on the nail Bluefire1.
The key is how will the order be enforced. It appears this will also be low key. it will be led by the blame and claim culture rather than proactive enforcement

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

There are many premises that are non-compliant with the WP regs so they definately won't be compliant with the RRO.

Can I ask what evidence supports the claim that enforcement will be low key?

As far as I'm aware, the order will be enforced, in line with the enforcement concordat of course.

[stevew]

I totally agree.

If we can see it why cant those who advise the ODPM.  

Interesting how the 'softly softly' approach of the FPWKP Regs appears to have found its way into the build up to the introduction of the RRO.  Pressure from industry and commerce perhaps?

Occupants beware I see things getting worse before  they get better.  How I would like to be proved wrong.

[kurnal]

The order gives fire authorities the duty to enforce, not the duty to inspect. Each Authority is free to devise its own inspection regime and  enforcement policy which should be based upon both the available resources and the perceived risk level.

The inspection regime will encompass many issues by which risk will be assessed,  in addition to fire safety enforcement- including risk to firefighters, environment, heritage and society. These one stop shop inspections will be carried out by a wide spectrum of officers, with operational crews playing a major role in most brigades.

As far as I am aware there are currently no OMPIS or targets  by which brigades  can be assessed as there were in the past- for example the number of enforcement visits, notices, prohibitions, premises by risk level etc.  

But most of all look at the size and make up of your fire safety enforcement teams. In my opinion numbers, ranks and qualifications have been decimated in the last two years since the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004. Just look at the number of staff engaged on enforcement duties in most brigades and the type of work they are involved in.
Surely less staff + lower qualifications+ wider range of duties+less National targets and indicators+freedom to make your own enforcement policy= low key enforcement?

[David Rooney]

As a "maintainer" of fire alarm systems I would say 5% of our customers don't have a current fire certificate even though they need one.

Probably 30% have never carried out a fire risk assessment basically because there is no one to make them.

Despite our encouragement, if it costs money, the average "small business" isn't going to do it unless there is not just a stiff penalty - these already exist for failing to meet the Workplace Regs - but a real chance of them being caught.

Is there going to be that dramatic an increase in inspections and enough publicity to worry anybody?? And if all these people do their RA's, wilthey be worht the paper they're written on?

[wee brian]

The key as you are all saying is the way that the order is enforced. Fire Safety Officers need to visit lots of premises. The trick here will be to take a pragmatic approach to the level of detail.

Walk in the building look around a bit, ask if they have a risk assessment. If they seem to have their act together walk out - 30 minutes max.

Do this all day until you find a "death trap" spend the rest of the day there giving them a hard time.

Alternativeley you can spend a fortnight arguing with somebody about whether their risk assessment is "suitable and sufficient" and that their emergency lighting isnt quite right and that the arrow on the exit sign should be up and not down etc.

Avoid pedantry and things may actually get better.

[Reg]

We do seem to take too much time enforcing the compliant.  We should be out looking for the scallies out there.  And you don't have to look too hard - just in the right places.  

WB's suggestion is great - but why not use the ops staff to do the 30min "have you got a risk assessment " visit and use the specilast IOs to deal with the problems.  Guidance will of course be necessary but they will cover alot more ground

[messy]

Just like compliance with the WP regs + MHSW regs, I can foresee three distinct categories of premises:

Large muliti-nationals - most will employ consultants and, by-and-large,(away from the food and beverage area) will comply

Small 'corner shop' premises - Most won't have a clue but will pose little risk

Then the middle range: This is the nightmare. Many of these would have had fire certs, will employ many, and have the public within the building. Some will have high risk premises and perhaps sleeping risks. They will know (or have an idea) about RRO but ignore it because of the expense

Meanwhile the FRS FS departments, strapped for cash and anxious on blowing those few resources on long legal cases, will resort to ambulance chasing and tend to prosecute after a fire where the evidence can be recorded and collected more easily. (along with the bodies perhaps)

[jayjay]

The points made are all very valid and without enforcement the regulations are ineffective.
What must also be considered is, even with the best and most comprehensive fire risk assessment completed, the important part is taking note of any significant findings and then introducing control measures or upgrading fire precautions to reduce fire risks.
Telling someone whats wrong is only part of the procedure. Fire Authorities will need to determine if measures are being implemented in a satisfactory and timely manner.
Having an upto date fire risk assessment is only part of compliance with the regulations.
With certification some time constraints  were imposed with a "steps notice" will fire authorities be issuing improvement notices with  completion dates?

[Martin Burford]

Bluefire

I too was an FPO under the FPA  era.... and that piece of legislation has served this country so well in providing satisfactory MofE from most occupancies.  With the introduction of EU Self-Compliance legislation, [ and we all know what self-compliance means]... standards with fall....and as a consequence fire related deaths and injuries will rise.. I have absolutely know doubt about this.  EU influence is wanting... in fact who want's EU influence anyway ?.....so I feel very gloomy about the future of fire safety in this country ........and i;m so glad i'm not an FB FPO now.. as I doubt if I could contain myself!!!!!!

Conqueror.

[Bluefire1]

Bluefire
.and i'm so glad i'm not an FB FPO now.. as I doubt if I ould contain myself!!!!!!

Having turned to the other side so to speak, I now find what people really think of FSO's. Most people don't know my background when I turn up to do some consultancy work so speak freely and to be honest I find the comments shocking. People have told me that once RR(FS)O comes in they will be over the moon, no more this and more that. When I explain the legal position, I get answers like.... they have to catch me first... why bother to call me as a consultant then if they have no intention of complying .... maybe just get some paperwork in place that will 'fool' the FSO... why knows !

As far as I can see and one or two have touched it here.... this softly softly approach.... the intention from what I have been told up to ODPM level, that either pro-active or full inspection regimes are not on the agenda.. is the main failing in the maintanance of the standards we have now. The idea that the FSO will look at RA's and follow up if there is reason to believe that something is wrong is no way to enforce.. there is a big difference between the' rotweiler' approach and the 'assist in complying' route but if it is law, then whichever way, it needs to be enforced....ideally somewhere between the two approaches, but it cannot be enforced by pulling the teeth of the enforcing authority.

I don't think that the EU legislation in itself is the problem, I have done work in France and Germany and find their pro-active system and heavy penalty scales a boost to the compliance under RA. It to me is simply the way the Gov here has implemented it... the usual token gesture. This applies not only to FS legislation but environmental, health and general H&S among others.

[val]

The Fire Policy Division, which drafted the RRO is keen for the Order to be enforced and have dropped fairly heavy hints to FRS that inspection is key. What they cannot, or will not do is force FRS hands by stipulating appropriate levels of enforcement.
FRS on the other hand are expected to make %'age savings year on year  (Gershon, Brown, 'double speak Tony B') and are reluctant to cut shiny red fire engines any more.
Work out where they are looking. It's not rocket science. We may have a nice new piece of legislation (well almost) but pressure to reduce costs may render it ineffective.
Top slicing the most risky premises is the answer...question is, how thin is that top slice?

[Bluefire1]

The Fire Policy Division....  have dropped fairly heavy hints to FRS that inspection is key.

Val,

I don't disagree with your statement in itself, I was told much the same BUT and the big but.... is, what is an inspection, you mentioned it yourself.... not stipulating appropriate levels. I got the distinct impression that yes FRS's would continue to go to premises (targetting life risk as priority), however the inspection would not be a full walk round as now... no certificate to go off in the future but would consist of an inspection of the FRA, with maybe a look at one or two things. I can't imagine that an FSO will have the time to start to inspect old style a large building possibly multi occ with no certificate standard plans but more outlines to satisfy RA. I have already seen what some people are producing as plans and I would hazard a guess that a 6 year old could do better.  My ex-FRS was in the process of working out points for each premise based on contraventions, size, processes, special risk, life risk etc. and putting suggested re-inspection times to them, some upto every 10 years. It was obvious that it was going down the road of targetting rather than blanket as now, I suppose with limited and getting more so resources, that this is the way most FRS's will go.... in other words.. yes inspections carried out as per orders Sir.

[messy]

Val

Why have the Fire Policy Division felt the need to "drop fairly heavy hints" to FRS re inspections? Should this not have been included within the RRO?

It doesn't exactly give me confidence if, as you say, a dept of the ODPM are giving unofficial briefings (aka heavy hints) before thse regs are introduced.

In fact surely this infers that they (Those who drafted the RRO) already believe that the RRO inspection procedures are flawed

Please tell me that I have got the wrong end of the stick!!!