Smoke detectors in flats

[jokar]

Detection in these flat types are for the occupants not for the other residents. Residents are supposed to stay behind their 60 minute protection.  True HMO's as indicated above have differing alarm systems because of a lower protection level.

[Gel]

And remember Wales & Scotland have differing "rules of engagement" for HMO's, with England's being bit more disjointed/locally decided.
Wales calls up sprinklers I believe in new HMO's.

Not sure on N Ireland scenario;perhaps someone can clarify?

WEE BRIAN
(Relevant document referred to earlier, was a legal opinion we had commissioned by a Doctor of Law, on the somewhat vague "Duty Of care" principle.

This aimed at public housing specifiers who bleat,
"Why do we have to fit smoke alarms in existing stock, there's nowt in Building Regs?"

Go to 10 legal eagles, and you'll get 10 opinions(+ INVOICES), but as we know Doctors best!)

[Mike Buckley]

Only 10 opinions!! I would count on at least 15 and most of those would be a fairly definite maybe.

[wee brian]

GEL

I can see that there may be a duty to ensure that your tennants get a standard of detection at a level similar to that of a new building. But providing a more extensive system than is recommended in an Approved Document would be hard to justify even by some two bit (or even several bits) lawyer.

[BikerJohn]

You would be amazed what architects put into conversion jobs with regard to detection. I had to look at a set of plans recently where they had put smoke detection in the staircase, the flat lobby and the flat lounge (that was actually a lounge diner), all linked. I recomended to him that they remove the smoke from the lounge, make the lobby one a heat and smoke in the staircase. Finally each lobby also had a part 6 smoke just to alert the flat occupants in the early stages or more likely to toast! I do find it strange that ADB really only gives detection coverage to the flat and does not consider warning the rest of the occupants of the block. If you are risk assessing and believe in detection its hard to say ok sit behind 60 minutes FR and hope you or a passer by spots the fire in a flat below.

[wee brian]

Its apolicy that has worked since the early 1960s. We dont just make this stuff up you know.

[jokar]

Have a read of Guidance Document 3 and the Notes that go with the Fire Alarm section.  You get a mix in some cases of part 1 and Part 6 in all sorts fo premises.

[BikerJohn]

Ouch Wee brian, you are a bit aggressive aren't you? saying it was a hang up from the 1960's is hardly a good reason, have we not just had some new fire safety legislation come out going by your attitude we should have stuck with the old stuff!

Thanks Jokar i will look it up.

[wee brian]

BJ

Didn't mean to be agressive. Just because the law changes it doesnt mean we have to change all the technical stuff. Fire is still a kind of hot and orangey stuff with smoke coming out of it. Even Parliament can't change that.

One thing I have noticed is that a lot of fire safety officers who, in the past, had little to do with blocks of flats are now questioning the startegy that the UK uses for these buildings.

There's nothing wrong with asking the question but I get a bit irritated by people who form opinions before doing their homework.

The strategy is well established and has a long and succesful history. I have had severall guys go off the deep end when they realise that you can have a 30 storey block with only one staircase.  However almost all the casualties we get in these buildings occur in the flat where the fire starts.

Nobody has ever become a casualty due to a lack of stairs in a block of flats. Given that we have been doing it for so long it is a clue that perhaps it works. (we do get lots of fires in these buildings so its not just luck)

There are a few buildings, often more modern ones, where some misguided sole has installed a house alarm system. This is often as a trade off against protection to the stairway. In practice the occupants soon tire of these things going off in the middle of the night and disable them. If you do evacuate the flats, people often end up with smoke injuries as there is often a fair bit of smoke in the stairway.

I had the dubious honour of investigating an incident in a relatively new block which had a house alarm system. Firefighting had gone a bit wrong and the officer in charge decided to evacuate the building. Firefighters worked their way down the building knocking on doors and asking people to leave. This is what is meant to happen.

Despite the fact that the house alarm had been ringing for some considerable time people only started to react when a firefighter in full kit appeared at their door. One householder was actually in the process of ripping a sounder off the wall as a firefighter apeeared at his front door!

[Big A]

Well said.

[PhilB]

If you are risk assessing and believe in detection its hard to say ok sit behind 60 minutes FR and hope you or a passer by spots the fire in a flat below.

The point is John that the level of compartmentation should ensure that the fire stays within the flat so why would you want to evacuate everyone?

I have to agree with Wee Brian, there are many very tall buildings with a single stairway that are perfectly safe.

[AnthonyB]

Some colleagues did a fire drill on one of these modern  conversions into residential flats earlier this week and after about 10 minutes gave up as not a single soul emerged - the licensed units at the bottom were not open at the time of alarm & the flats were either empty or ignored it!

This does illustrate the limited value of a central common alarm in this non HMO situation - you can't even cite early fire service attendance as this system isn't linked to a monitoring station! Plus there are two alternative protected stairs as well as the main atrium and corridor seperation

[wee brian]

QED

Why are peop[le trying to reinvent a perfectly serviceable wheel?

[MHouse]

I am new to this forum but I would like an opinion on the following. The question is in regard to fire risk assessments on flats. The flats in question would not have been built in accordance with the current B Regs in fact some of them are in the region of 70yrs old. All have timber floors and generally only one staircase. The front doors to the flats are suspect but substantial ie heavy but no seals or in most cases no self closers. The FSO asks for fire alarm for the common area based on BS5839 pt1 but also Pt6 Grade A LD2. The question is should this installation include fire alarm call points and if so where would they be installed. My first thought was that at least one call point at the panel may be suffiecent., but on reflection perhaps no call points only detection. I realise that call points in the public domain may in many properties give rise to abuse and false alarms but these properties are in the top end on the market both cashwise and socially. The flats are being advised to install their own smoke detection system that will not be linked to the building alarm (so no burnt toast evacuations)

PeteG

[Wiz]

I am new to this forum but I would like an opinion on the following. The question is in regard to fire risk assessments on flats. The flats in question would not have been built in accordance with the current B Regs in fact some of them are in the region of 70yrs old. All have timber floors and generally only one staircase. The front doors to the flats are suspect but substantial ie heavy but no seals or in most cases no self closers. The FSO asks for fire alarm for the common area based on BS5839 pt1 but also Pt6 Grade A LD2. The question is should this installation include fire alarm call points and if so where would they be installed. My first thought was that at least one call point at the panel may be suffiecent., but on reflection perhaps no call points only detection. I realise that call points in the public domain may in many properties give rise to abuse and false alarms but these properties are in the top end on the market both cashwise and socially. The flats are being advised to install their own smoke detection system that will not be linked to the building alarm (so no burnt toast evacuations)

PeteG

Peter,
Since the requirement for the common areas is for a BS5839 part 1 system, and on the assumption it is installed for the protection of Life, then Manual Call Points are the minimum that would be required and would be installed adjacent to every exit from the buidling and at each of floor levels leading to the staircase. If the actual travel distance to operate any MCP is more than 45 metres (25 metres if a significant number of mobility impaired residents) then additional MCPs may be required. Automatic detection is not a definite requirement just because a system has to be to BS5839 part 1, but I would guess the Risk Assessment would require them, as per L4 category as a minimum.