lobbies to 4 storey hotels

[Bill G]

Can I pick your collective experience.

I have a fire authority that are insisting upon the provision of lobbies to a single staircase , 4 storey hotel.The hotel is provided with a L2 fire alarm system. The hotel concerned had a fire certificate issued by the FA within the last two years. When it was issued they applied a single door and smoke solution to the hotel.

We would like to provide the lobbies but structurally it is impossible (without damaging the usability of the hotel). What I am seeking is advice on what you would consider to be a reasonable alternative to a lobby ( and not a second staircase !) ie automatic ventilation to the top of the stair, pressurisation to the stair case, etc

[Ashley Wood]

You may want to look at installing a sprinkler or high pressure water mist system. We worked on a project for a large bank where they had issues such as this. The fire authorities in Scotland accepted the installation of a water mist system in conjunction with a smoke detection system.

[wee brian]

This is outrageousely over the top - tell them to wind their necks in.

Pressurisation in an existing stair is usually a nightmare. A auto vent at the head of the stair, will probably make things worse.

Maybe a manual vent. but they need to understand that we can't rebuild every building in the country.

Maybe go for a Determination under Art 36

[Bill G]

Many thanks -

I take your point about over the top - what they (the FA) are saying is that although the sleeping risk guide is published as a guide they are interpreting it as a "standard"  and within the preface of the guide it makes the point that as a guide it is not prescriptive - but that as long as we can demonstrate that we can provide an equilivant standard then that would be acceptable. Hence I am trying to seek an equilivant standard.

[kurnal]

Trying to visualise the current  arrangements- is it the case that all rooms open directly into a large open stairwell?
Is there a single door from all rooms- including high risk rooms such as kitchens open into the staircase as well?
No corridors serving rooms?
What are the doors like?
What type of smoke detection do you have in the stair - any detection at intermediate levels? (that at the head of the stair would be very high for a point detector and something a little more sensitive  may help)  
Are there any furnishings or other risk items in the stair?
Is there a night porter or other similar  risk control measure in place?
Is it an historic or listed building?

Sorry for so many questions- but need a clear mental picture of the situation.

[jokar]

The FRS are enforcers/policing the law they are not the exponents of the Fire Safety Duties in articles 8 to 22 of the Fire Safety Order.  Undertake your Fire Risk Assessment and within that assess the risks to the relevant persons from not having a lobby.  In sleeping risks premises the corridors and doors to the bedrooms are fire resistant anyway and that is the first door of the lobby protection.  The door to the staircase is the second door.  Therefore you have already provided the criteria for 2 door protection to the risk area ie the bedrooms.  What they are asking for is 3 door protection which will then hamper the escape routes as 3 doors have to be opened to then escape into the staircase and then presumably a 4th or even 5th door to exit the premises.  The guide is not prescritive and the FRS can not make it so, read the article in the FSE magazine by Rosemary Everton a top legl advisor on fire law.

[wee brian]

We need to get some of these issues put to determination. If we don't these over zealous enforcement officers will put the nation out of business.

[Tom Sutton]

Steady guys, you need the full facts as requested by Kurnal, before you should start slagging off enforcement officers. If you are going to make statements then ensure they are informed statements.

[Bill G]

Many thanks so far !

In answer to "Kurnal"

The hotel is a 4 storey terraced hotel bulit at the turn of the century with a single staircase. Ground floor consists of the ancillary accommodation ie dining room, lounge and kitchen all of which are directly off the staircase with a single door. The upper floors are all sleeping accommodation , with the bedroom doors directly onto the staircase enclosure. At the top floor their are two rooms which are accesed of the staircase by a very short corridor ( 1.5metres- these two are lobbied !)). The alarm system is a BS 5839 L2 system ( in all the places etc you would expect).The doors to the rooms are a bit of a mixture of 30 min doors without smoke seals and other doors that have been made up ( again without smoke seals ) The doors need to be replaced or upgraded to the current standard ( their is no problem regarding this , it is just the provision of the lobbies!
There are no furnishings in the staricase and the owner has some private accommodation in the lower ground floor ( which is seperated from the ground floor as you would expect) and as such are their 25/7. And no the building is not listed etc.

Regarding "jokar's" comment about the status of the guide - I am being advised that the FA are being instructed to regard the guide as a "standard" and that it is for the risk assessor to justify in their risk assesment as to why they have not met the suggested standard in the guide. This is where I am finding it hard to justify any good reason as to why the lobbies are not needed , or what I can provide as an equilivant to a lobby.

[wee brian]

OK maybe I flew off the handle a bit (getting old and tetchy)

Jokar is right though, if you have FR room doors and FR stair doors then you have your lobby.

Job done.

[Bill G]

Possibly I am not explianing it well enough - There is only "one" door between the rooms and the staircase ( for all rooms with the exception of the top floor) ie the room door.

[wee brian]

Yeah that's quite bad really. But some of these old places don't have the room to get the doors in.

If you really can't get them in then I'd go for L1 detection (smokes in the rooms) and upgrade the room doors to FD30s.

[jokar]

Another possibility would be to have L1 with smoke or Carbon Monoxide detectors in the bedrooms and have 60 minutes doors.  Include a  link, if it is not already there to a call centre for instant response.

[Tom Sutton]

I am pretty certain your premises almost met the old prescriptive code, to be certain I would need to know the floor area, also a fire certificate was issued. In these days of risk assessment and flexibility I am very suprised if it does not continue the meet the standards of the current guides. I have included below the relevant Paragraph from the old guide, sorry its so long winded.

STAGE 3 — Travel within stairways and to final exits Number of stairways

Building with a single stairway

13.34. It will normally be necessary for a building to be provided with two or more stairways, but a single stairway of suitable capacity for the number of persons using the route may be considered satisfactory in the following circumstances:-

(a) the floor area of any upper floor of the building does not exceed 200m2, and distances of travel conform to those given in Table D of paragraph 13.7.

(b) the building has no more than 4 floors, or no upper floor is at a height of more than 11 metres;

(c) the stairway conforms with one of the arrangements described in paragraph 13.35; and

(d) in a building more than 2 floors in height access to the stairway from any room (other than a toilet containing no fire risk) is through two sets of fire doors. Exceptionally, where it is impracticable to achieve this, in premises of not more than 3 floors in height, access to the stairway from any room may be from a single fire door, subject to an automatic fire detection system being installed to the type L1 system in accordance with British Standard 5839: Part 1.

Para 13.7. Table D is the travel distances for escape in on direction only.
Para 13.35 lays down the conditions for the final exit.

I think wb has hit the nail on the head.

[Bill G]

Many thanks - you are right the old Lilac standard had been applied to this building (in a fashion!) but it should be noted that the dispensation for the two doors was restricted to a 3 story building.  Therefore even in the old Lilac standard if you had a 4th floor you would have needed to have fitted lobbies. In the new guides it has made a few subtile changes ie for a three storey building the suggested standard is an L2 system together with single door protection ( which in effect is a downgrading of standard when compared to the Lilac) . A 4 storey has a suggested standard of L2 and lobbies - with no form of dispensation .(se figures 50 &51 of the sleeping guide).
Regarding the idea of a L1 system - I feel a bit uncomfortabel with this - Are we not just playing with words here. For an average property of this type the difference between an L2 and L1 system is negligable ,possibly a detector in the roof space !. The provision of an L1 system does not compensate for the non-provision of for example  a lobby at ground floor level . My understanding is that the lobbies are there to provide a protected route for the most vulnerable people namley those on the top floor with the furthest travel distance. My gut feeling is that in order to find an equilivant I should be seeking something that deals with smoke penatration from the room into the staircase. Hence the idea thought of the AOV.