Green break glasses

[Galeon]

Are these always linked to the fire alarm?  If so do they always show up on the fire alarm panel as a seperate item or just within the Zone.

www.rbhealthandsafety.co.uk

Sorry boys , if I now quote anything you have previously said , I have never agreed with any relay being fired off a bell /alarm circuit, for the reason stated before , silence action would reinstate the relay. Even using a lathing relay was probably the best compromise to the above.
To be honest it was always a pain when you quote the customer particularly on a conventional panel , a proper link to the equipment you want to control.
I was amazed on one site where this was not adopted (old section 20 building) and in their wisdom the engineers decided to run the door releases off the local alarm circuit in each floor , hey presto phased evacuation sounders pulsing , doors  lock , unlock here we go.
I am of the understanding of the new B.S that not only a fire signal will be required , but dependant on the location route of door retainers , access locks a fault condition will also be required .

[Ricardo]

The following is extracted from the FSRA Large Places of Assembly guide,


Guidance on fire exits starts from the position that doors on escape routes should not be fitted with any locking devices (electrically operated or otherwise). However, it is accepted that in many cases the need for security will require some form of device that prevents unlimited access, but still enables the occupants of a building or area to open the door easily if there is a fire.

These devices can take many forms but, in the majority of cases, premises where there are members of the public present or others who are not familiar with the building should use panic exit bar devices (i.e. push bars or touch bars). See BS EN 112542 for further information.

Management of electronic door-control devices including time delays The use of such devices may be accepted by
enforcing authorities if the responsible person can demonstrate, through a suitable risk assessment for each individual door, both the need and the adequate management controls to ensure that people can escape safely from the premises.

In public areas, when push bars are operated on escape doors, they should release the electromagnetic locks
immediately and allow the exit doors to open.

In premises where there may be large numbers of people, the devices should only be considered when linked to a comprehensive automatic fire-detection and warning system in accordance with BS 5839-1.16 There should be an additional means of manually overriding the locking device at each such exit (typically a green break-glass point).

Electromagnetic devices
These devices comprise a magnet and a simple fixed retaining plate with no moving parts and are therefore generally considered to be more reliable due to their inherent ‘fail-safe unlocked’ operation.
 
The release of this type of device is controlled by the interruption of electrical current to an electromagnet either manually via a switch or other means, break-glass point (typically coloured green), or by linking to the fire-warning and/or detection system of the premises.

[Wiz]

Dr Wiz
Surprised to find you so far away from your usual refuge, have you strayed from matrons bosom?

Professor K, you'd be surprised/disgusted/jealous if you knew about some of matron's places I've found myself in lately!

You have brought with you an incomplete link to the UCL website- please go back and collect the missing pieces, stick it all back together with gaffer tape and we may be in business.

Can't be bothered. Scroll up a few posts to the original link and try that one

Question 1 and 2- Did you see the CFOA / IFE document written by Graham Shiel a number of years ago? As far as I am aware, though very dated, (1999) this remains the most complete overview of this subject. The local Enforcement Authority can ask for whatever they like, as you know its down to the Responsible Person to decide how they will comply with the Fire Safety order and the Enforcement Authority cannot prescribe conditions- if they disagree the courts will decide on appeal.

No I didn't see Graham Shiel's document. Nor have I seen those written by each of the country's fire service, local authority, and all those special committees, quangos, dingos and dongos. And this is a problem that really annoys me. There should be one or just a few national bodies producing the rules, or the recommendations or the guidelines. Too many people try to 'get in on the act' and it just causes confusion. The problem is that someone says you have to do 'this' or 'that' when your are 'on my patch' and then someone else wants something different, somewhere else! Then there is the advice that filters throughout the country and then is proved to be poor advice - I'm sure I remember advice produced by someone stating that smoke detectors had to be installed within 1.5m of an electromagnetically held open fire door that was eventually slavishly followed all over the country and then it was rescinded as being  poor advice!
Why should regional authorities be able to demand things not covered by national recommendations? If it is a necessary requirement it should apply everywhere and be included in national recommendations/guidelines so that everyone has a chance of designing/installing a system that will comply and not depend on a jobsworth demanding that fire bells be painted pink because someone on Little Dongsbury's Fire And Safety Enforcement Committee demands it so they don't offend the local gay community!

As for your question 3 the answer is no. There does not appear to be a logical link between the two sentences.

Exactly! I'm sure it causes much confusion. We are paying for these people to produce this drivel - why do we let them get away with it?

Many hospitals used to have electronic locks wired for convenience to the sounders, trouble was when the sounders were silenced to help the staff and fire service get on with their work and searches, all the doors used to lock again which was not a great deal of help to anyone.

In the case of the scenario you describe I would totally agree. however I believe that the insistance that the fire door control interface relays should never be wired to sounders circuits is not reasonable. There can be useful cost-savings in doing it this way and shouldn't cause the problems you highlight in many circumstances. Take for example and Elderly Persons Home that has only fire door hold open devices that automatically release on fire alarm. Once they have released they are not going to automatically swing open and hold back again by themselves after the alarm has been silenced ( I appreciate that there is the argument that interface relays connected to sounder circuits won't release IF the sounder circuit fails. But there is always an IF argument. for example, it could be argued out that the door holds won't release IF whatever interface they are connected to doesn't operate - this applies to fire panel installed aux. relays equally as sounder connected relays.
Every situation could be different, so this why the advice that fire door interface relays should never be connected to sounder circuits can't be right.

[Wiz]

Retty, 10 out of 10 for the explanation and that is not meant to be patronising.

Cracking explanation Retty!.

You say that green boxes can be disguised, Ive never come across this before, but now you mention it I  can see how they could be disguised easily.

Are there any "off the shelf products" to do this or do you need a sparky to wire something bespoke for you?

If they can be 'disguised' are they serving the purpose for which they were installed? Or is it only those 'in the know' who are allowed to escape in an emergency?

[Clevelandfire]

No if you read rettys post again you will understand where and when disguised green boxes can be used

Speaking to a colleague this afternoon she tells me its not uncommon to see "disguised" or hard to reach green boxes in care establishments with dementia patients or those with mental impairments.

[Tom Sutton]

Most security doors I have seen have a keypad or card reader on the side going into the secure area, room or premises and a thumb turn, handle or knob going from the secure area to the outside or are you discussing something else.

If this is correct and direction of escape in most cases would be from inside the premises to outside then in what situation do you require the green boxes? If you place a green box on the secure side of the door then it would defeat the purpose or am I missing something obvious.

[kurnal]

Exactly! I'm sure it causes much confusion. We are paying for these people to produce this drivel - why do we let them get away with it?

Theres another way of looking at this Dr Wiz.
What so often happens is that because there is no clear national guidance in the public domain the local fire brigade get loads of queries from people wishing to install these things and to do it right. Rather than answer every individual query they produce a guidance document showing their expectations as an enforcement agency. Its intended to help people. It is not set in stone, its more like if you want no hassle from us follow this guidance- or do it another way if you wish but we may take a close look at what you have done and may use enforcement if we disagree that your solution provides an adequate degree of safety. Where theres a BS or EN then its easy - the fire service can just quote that.  
The guidance can be put together by a specific officer who perceives the need and puts it through the chain of management  and whilst it will be carefully scrutinised to the nth degree for political correctness there is probably nobody to verify the technical accuracy. Not a pretty situation  but thats how it often is.

In the case of the scenario you describe I would totally agree. however I believe that the insistance that the fire door control interface relays should never be wired to sounders circuits is not reasonable. There can be useful cost-savings in doing it this way and shouldn't cause the problems you highlight in many circumstances. Take for example and Elderly Persons Home that has only fire door hold open devices that automatically release on fire alarm. Once they have released they are not going to automatically swing open and hold back again by themselves after the alarm has been silenced ( I appreciate that there is the argument that interface relays connected to sounder circuits won't release IF the sounder circuit fails. But there is always an IF argument. for example, it could be argued out that the door holds won't release IF whatever interface they are connected to doesn't operate - this applies to fire panel installed aux. relays equally as sounder connected relays.
Every situation could be different, so this why the advice that fire door interface relays should never be connected to sounder circuits can't be right.

Again I fully agree with you and often latching relays are a reasonable way forward. Graham Shiels document gave a range of solutions that was another well intended attempt to provide national guidance. Although lots of people have criticised it nobody has ever put together anything better as far as I am aware. I think I may have a single spare copy if you are interested.

[Wiz]

No if you read rettys post again you will understand where and when disguised green boxes can be used

Speaking to a colleague this afternoon she tells me its not uncommon to see "disguised" or hard to reach green boxes in care establishments with dementia patients or those with mental impairments.

Clevelandfire, I read it the first time and I read it again upon your insistance (and I'm pretty good at reading - I've been doing it for years. At six years old, I even won a gold star from my teacher Miss Strip (how we giggled!) for my reading!) and I still can't see that it answers my question.

If green emergency door release call points need to be installed for emergency purposes then should they not be available for everyone? If you want an 'exit' facility just for certain users, you could iuse a keypad, or card/proximity reader or keyswitch but surely not describe it as a substitute for a emergency door release switch, which is surely something that is installed for a completely different purpose?

[Wiz]

[quotekurnal]

Exactly! I'm sure it causes much confusion. We are paying for these people to produce this drivel - why do we let them get away with it?
Theres another way of looking at this Dr Wiz.
What so often happens is that because there is no clear national guidance in the public domain the local fire brigade get loads of queries from people wishing to install these things and to do it right. Rather than answer every individual query they produce a guidance document showing their expectations as an enforcement agency. Its intended to help people. It is not set in stone, its more like if you want no hassle from us follow this guidance- or do it another way if you wish but we may take a close look at what you have done and may use enforcement if we disagree that your solution provides an adequate degree of safety. Where theres a BS or EN then its easy - the fire service can just quote that.  
The guidance can be put together by a specific officer who perceives the need and puts it through the chain of management  and whilst it will be carefully scrutinised to the nth degree for political correctness there is probably nobody to verify the technical accuracy. Not a pretty situation  but thats how it often is

Fully understood and accepted Professor K, but why oh why can't they make it totally clear in these documents what parts are purely advice and not 'set in stone' and what is covered by national rules and recommendations? It would reduce much confusion. Better still, why couldn't there be a national set of guidelines issued by one body able to verify technical accuracy, that everyone would follow? Every man and his dog gets in on the act at the moment, and some of what is produced is less than perfect but sometimes gets quoted as 'fact' - it's like how 'urban myths' get about. If I was given a pound for every time an electrician told me that the minimum two sounder circuits have to be 'spread' equally over the premises, because it said so in the Upper Munchkintown Fire Officer's guidance notes that he was given 23 years ago, I'd have £2,987,235 (or thereabouts!)

In the case of the scenario you describe I would totally agree. however I believe that the insistance that the fire door control interface relays should never be wired to sounders circuits is not reasonable. There can be useful cost-savings in doing it this way and shouldn't cause the problems you highlight in many circumstances. Take for example and Elderly Persons Home that has only fire door hold open devices that automatically release on fire alarm. Once they have released they are not going to automatically swing open and hold back again by themselves after the alarm has been silenced ( I appreciate that there is the argument that interface relays connected to sounder circuits won't release IF the sounder circuit fails. But there is always an IF argument. for example, it could be argued out that the door holds won't release IF whatever interface they are connected to doesn't operate - this applies to fire panel installed aux. relays equally as sounder connected relays.
Every situation could be different, so this why the advice that fire door interface relays should never be connected to sounder circuits can't be right.

Again I fully agree with you and often latching relays are a reasonable way forward. Graham Shiels document gave a range of solutions that was another well intended attempt to provide national guidance. Although lots of people have criticised it nobody has ever put together anything better as far as I am aware. I think I may have a single spare copy if you are interested.

Yes please, Prof. K. Can you scan it in and email it to me?

[Clevelandfire]

No if you read rettys post again you will understand where and when disguised green boxes can be used

Speaking to a colleague this afternoon she tells me its not uncommon to see "disguised" or hard to reach green boxes in care establishments with dementia patients or those with mental impairments.

Clevelandfire, I read it the first time and I read it again upon your insistance (and I'm pretty good at reading - I've been doing it for years. At six years old, I even won a gold star from my teacher Miss Strip (how we giggled!) for my reading!) and I still can't see that it answers my question.

If green emergency door release call points need to be installed for emergency purposes then should they not be available for everyone? If you want an 'exit' facility just for certain users, you could iuse a keypad, or card/proximity reader or keyswitch but surely not describe it as a substitute for a emergency door release switch, which is surely something that is installed for a completely different purpose?

Miss Strip obviously was misguided in giving you a star

Retty says green boxes not suitable for M.O.P

Card readers / pads  not suitable for MOE - they may fail

green box is failsafe, alot YOI / care homes with DE patients have green boxes which are disguised so patients or offenders dont escape, but staff know what they are if they need to use them, and the satff assist in evacuation, it isnt left to offenders or patients

So wheres the problem?

[Wiz]

No if you read rettys post again you will understand where and when disguised green boxes can be used

Speaking to a colleague this afternoon she tells me its not uncommon to see "disguised" or hard to reach green boxes in care establishments with dementia patients or those with mental impairments.

Clevelandfire, I read it the first time and I read it again upon your insistance (and I'm pretty good at reading - I've been doing it for years. At six years old, I even won a gold star from my teacher Miss Strip (how we giggled!) for my reading!) and I still can't see that it answers my question.

If green emergency door release call points need to be installed for emergency purposes then should they not be available for everyone? If you want an 'exit' facility just for certain users, you could iuse a keypad, or card/proximity reader or keyswitch but surely not describe it as a substitute for a emergency door release switch, which is surely something that is installed for a completely different purpose?

Miss Strip obviously was misguided in giving you a star

Retty says green boxes not suitable for M.O.P

Card readers / pads  not suitable for MOE - they may fail

green box is failsafe, alot YOI / care homes with DE patients have green boxes which are disguised so patients or offenders dont escape, but staff know what they are if they need to use them, and the satff assist in evacuation, it isnt left to offenders or patients

So wheres the problem?

So it is agreed that Retty's devices are not green emergency door releases switches but disguised request to exit switches. Why are they therefore being mentioned as being a possible substitute for a green emergency door release switch?

[Clevelandfire]

But I just don't see where you are coming from.

Yes of course they are a substitutes, if you want to call them that, in as much as the gubbins inside arent housed in a green box with "emergency break glass" on it.

Its the workings of a green box just not in a green box disguised as something else.

Still does the same job I just dont see why you fail to grasp the concept

Retty just pointed out that you can disguise them as an aside comment to the main thrust of his post

I you deliberately being facetious? Whats the problem here?

[jacko999]

Sidm

my first post. theres the  bs 7974 part 4. my brigade have adopted it as the standard and i have enforced it in my brigade. green box the norm. its mentionened in the bs. also htm docs are being ammended to 7274 standards, htm 05 /part k our soon

[Wiz]

But I just don't see where you are coming from.

Yes of course they are a substitutes, if you want to call them that, in as much as the gubbins inside arent housed in a green box with "emergency break glass" on it.

Its the workings of a green box just not in a green box disguised as something else.

Still does the same job I just dont see why you fail to grasp the concept

Retty just pointed out that you can disguise them as an aside comment to the main thrust of his post

I you deliberately being facetious? Whats the problem here?

The actual wording Retty used was:

.....Green boxes can be disguised........

Can you not understand that such wording might encourage the unwary to not fit a green emergency door release switch when requested, but some other 'disguised' switch instead because Retty and Clevelandfire says that it is o.k. to do so.

If an application requires a green emergency door release it is for a specific purpose i.e a releasing device that can be easily seen, easily identified and easily used by everyone in an emergency.

The item Retty mentioned is actually a disguised 'request to exit ' switch. It actually doesn't do 'the same job' as you seem to think.

 Therefore there is a difference. You might think it is a subtle difference, but I dont. The difference should be made clear to our readers.

Please don't make any more comments about my ability to 'grasp concepts' if it relates to the technical aspects of electrical safety and security systems or make accusations that I'm being facetious (I might be sarcastic but never facetious!). I have over 30 years of experience in respect of the former and rarely enough time for the latter (although I might be able to make an exception in your case for the future).

[Midland Retty]

But I just don't see where you are coming from.

Yes of course they are a substitutes, if you want to call them that, in as much as the gubbins inside arent housed in a green box with "emergency break glass" on it.

Its the workings of a green box just not in a green box disguised as something else.

Still does the same job I just dont see why you fail to grasp the concept

Retty just pointed out that you can disguise them as an aside comment to the main thrust of his post

I you deliberately being facetious? Whats the problem here?

The actual wording Retty used was:

.....Green boxes can be disguised........

Can you not understand that such wording might encourage the unwary to not fit a green emergency door release switch when requested, but some other 'disguised' switch instead because Retty and Clevelandfire says that it is o.k. to do so.

If an application requires a green emergency door release it is for a specific purpose i.e a releasing device that can be easily seen, easily identified and easily used by everyone in an emergency.

The item Retty mentioned is actually a disguised 'request to exit ' switch. It actually doesn't do 'the same job' as you seem to think.

 Therefore there is a difference. You might think it is a subtle difference, but I dont. The difference should be made clear to our readers.

Please don't make any more comments about my ability to 'grasp concepts' if it relates to the technical aspects of electrical safety and security systems or make accusations that I'm being facetious (I might be sarcastic but never facetious!). I have over 30 years of experience in respect of the former and not enough time for the latter.

I'm sorry if I was not clear in my earlier posts.  I just mentioned it in passing as an addition really to the main posters question.

But a disguised green box isn't  a request to exit button necessarily.

Some request to exit buttons are not wired directly to the locking mechanism, they are sometimes wired via the same relay that gets actuated by the fire alarm, and in my original post I clearly state that green boxes may not be wired in this way.

A disguised green box is exactly that and as Cleveland rightly points out  the inner workings and circuitry of the green box is used and put into something like a light switch say or under a blank cover which flips up to reveal a button underneath.

Going back to the point of green boxes not being used in public areas. Our brigade will not accept their use in public areas as tests have shown almost conclusively that people (even with informative signage) do not know what they are there for and what they do. Plus as with call points some people dont klike the idea of "breaking " the glass (on the older style ones) as they think they might be billed to replace the glass, or might get a cut from the glass.

Clearly other brigades may accept different standards, and yes we are in the days of risk assessment, all I would say is excercise caution when considering them in public circulation areas.