Public Building...Locked Fire Escape!

[Mike Buckley]

Although it is well not publicised there should be a committee in the FRA which looks at complaints about the FRS. This is used to monitor the FRS but it will also deal with complaints and disciplinary matters.

About two years ago I saw an advert in the local rag asking for applications for members of this committee. You may have to dig abit to find it you could try Citizen's Advice.

[Donna]

The thing is Mike,
I value our fire service, I dont really want to make myself unpopular and make a formal complaint...So at the moment I wouldnt want to approach the FRA, (even though I will "dig them out" for future reference)... .but the Fire Safety Officer isn't helping himself, I think I put forward some valid points, as straight foward and as politely as I can in an email!...Is all I want is decent communication from him, and then I get sent a pre printed response, and that was 3 days ago!
The building is in public use today, and I know the fire exit is still unneccesarily locked. (as I know some other ways around it) I just want the chance to be listened to.

[Big T]

Not wishing to sound like the devils advocate, but have you seen a copy of the fire risk assessment donna? How do you know that the control measures relating to this door are not 100% robust and that the management pracitises and the assessment of risk carried out on the premises is not suitable?

Under the order It is the responsible persons duty to ensure a suitable assessment has been carried out by the competant person. If the company wants to live with that quantity of residual risk, that is up to them. Safe to say they would be prosecuted if there were any deaths or near misses and would receive a improvement, enforcement or prohibition notice by the brigade if they deam the mitigation of the risk to be unsuitable.

Why don't you ring them? And ask why he doesn't feel an improvement notice or letter of deficiencies is necessary. From my experience the fire brigades will send out deficiency notices like they are going out of fashion, so if this is an issue one would undoubtedly be issued.

Also, how do you know one hasn't been issued?

[FSO]

The response by the FRA seems strange.

If a complaint comes into the office we have to turn it around within 24 hours and if the complaint comes through brigade control (ie 999) an FSO will will be mobilised immediately.

Different working practices I suppose......strange

Jay

[Midland Retty]

Not wishing to sound like the devils advocate, but have you seen a copy of the fire risk assessment donna? How do you know that the control measures relating to this door are not 100% robust and that the management pracitises and the assessment of risk carried out on the premises is not suitable?

Under the order It is the responsible persons duty to ensure a suitable assessment has been carried out by the competant person. If the company wants to live with that quantity of residual risk, that is up to them. Safe to say they would be prosecuted if there were any deaths or near misses and would receive a improvement, enforcement or prohibition notice by the brigade if they deam the mitigation of the risk to be unsuitable.

Why don't you ring them? And ask why he doesn't feel an improvement notice or letter of deficiencies is necessary. From my experience the fire brigades will send out deficiency notices like they are going out of fashion, so if this is an issue one would undoubtedly be issued.

Also, how do you know one hasn't been issued?

I think DOnna has tried that and isnt getting a response

[MonkeyBoy]

Donna,
An interesting topic - to say the least!

FRA's will differ in practice (usually because of different staffing levels etc) but should not "ignore" reports of blocked/locked exits.

I would think that there are two easy solutions to this particular problem:

1.   Visit the premises, attempt to open the fire exit (as somebody stated earlier, it should be available at all material times - hence our dislike of keylocks!).     When (if) you cannot use the exit - ask (demand) to speak to the "duty manager" (the "responsible person") - and find out why you cannot use it.     It you cannot speak to the DM, or their answer doesn't satisfy you......move onto option 2

2.   EITHER     Phone your local fire service headquarters and make a complaint, not to the fire safety office, but to the most senior person you can be put through to!
 
     OR            If, hand on heart now!, you seriously consider (please bear in mind that I do not the size, layout etc of this building) that peoples lives are being put at risk due to this locked door......... DIAL 999, ASK FOR THE FIRE SERVICE, REPORT IT!   ALL 999 calls are recorded and logged with "incident" numbers - this WILL acheive some action!

Good luck!!

[Big T]

Dial 999? Nice one.

"Hello operator"
"Hi can I have an emergency response to a locked fire door please, the crew commander needs a chat with the DM at some shoddy dump of a community building"?"
"No"
"Ok, Bye"

Marvellous

[MonkeyBoy]

No - Big T, that is not what I was implying.

By reporting it to the Control Room they will log the call and pass it on to either a Supervisory / Flexi-duty Officer with suitable skills/ knowledge (fire safety!) to attend OR they will contact the local Fire Safety Department for it to be acted upon.

The big difference to Donna contacting the fire safety department and Control contacting them is the fact that the call has been logged and recorded.

Should nothing happen after this, Donna's complaint / cause for concern will have an auditable trail and people will be accountable for their actions / lack of actions.

Fire Authorities hate having complaints made about them!   Action will be taken using this method.

I believe that Donna has already exhausted the "nice routes" for raising her concerns and is entitled, as a member of public, to receiving a proper, professional, response to her concerns.


Also, if there are lives at risk - Crew Commanders should be suitably competent / confident in responding to causes for concerns and discussing the concern with the Duty Manager and taking any appropriate action (which could include, but not limited to, summoning the duty Fire Service Group Manager who would be empowered to serve an Article 31 Prohibition / Restriction Notice on the premises AND to consider the commencement of legal proceedings against the Duty Manager).


I hope this premises is not in the area that I live and serve in!

I would hate to think that the Authority I work for would "ignore" any report of a blocked exit!

[Big T]

To be fair though it isn't a blocked exit, its a locked exit, locked inside with a key. Would it be unreasonable to have a key to unlock it? depends on the buildings use and occupancy. Is there a spare key in a break glass box adjacent? Are there a suitable number of staff onsite who immediately unlock the exit on activation of the alarm?

What is the expected outcome? A push bar exit to be installed? a thumb turn lock to be installed?

I'm still not convinced by the 999 option though.

[MonkeyBoy]

To be fair though it isn't a blocked exit, its a locked exit, locked inside with a key. Would it be unreasonable to have a key to unlock it? depends on the buildings use and occupancy. Is there a spare key in a break glass box adjacent? Are there a suitable number of staff onsite who immediately unlock the exit on activation of the alarm?

What is the expected outcome? A push bar exit to be installed? a thumb turn lock to be installed?

I'm still not convinced by the 999 option though.

Oh dear!
An exit that is locked, and cannot be used, is the same as a blocked exit (the hole in the wall being blocked by the door that cannot be opened).

Keys?  Public Buildings?   Break glass key boxes??   How quaint!

A simple quote from the document "Fire Risk Safety Risk Assessment - Large Places of Assembly" (published by the Secretary of State in support of the RR(FS)Order (Article 50))
"Doors used for means of escape should be kept unlocked at all times when people are in the premises and in no case should a door be fastened so that it cannot easily and immediately be opened for the inside without the use of a key.   If the door is to be kept fastened while persons are in the building, the fastening should be by means of a panic latch or panic bar (or similar) so that the door can be readily opened by pressure applied by persons within."

There is obviously (for those who have read the documents) an awful lot more information on escape routes in the guides, I don't intend labouring the point.
Interestingly though, having had a quick scan of the other RA Guides I have not been able to find any acceptable situation for keys in glass boxes - can anybody point to one?

But, lets get back to Donna's problem - the fire service does not, from information posted, appear to have checked an allegation of a locked/blocked exit in a public building.
THAT, if true, is what is not acceptable.

[Mike Buckley]

Yes Donna I value the Fire Service as well especially as I was in it! However if I want the Fire Service to be the best there is I must let it know when it has not met my expectations (and also when it has). If you went into a restaurant and the food was badly cooked you would compalin wouldn't you?

It sounds to me as if there is a valid complaint about what has happened. There should be a valid explanation and the person who is worried about it should be reassured that everything is OK or that action will be taken.

Remember that no one believed that a nice GP would harm his patients even if he was called Harold Shipman.

[Big T]

Please remember I am merely playing devils advocate

Irrelevant of what the guides say (and I have read them) Whilst it may say "no keys", the majority of buildings in the uk wern't built in the last 2 years so I rekon the current number of exits with a red break glass key cabinet to open an alternative exit would be high. They have been ok for the last 40 years and i know for a fact that not every premise has even had an assessment, let alone a fire brigade visit and this property has had both. As always, it's up to the risk assessor to decide what is suitable (irrespective of the guidance document) or the fire brigade to enforce what they believe is suitable if the responsible person is in their opnion wrong. And in this case the brigade don't appear to care one little bit. Must be really dangerous if the IO thinks its ok as does the risk assessor and the council!

I wouldn't recommend using 999 as a complaints registration number, if you do, you face a fine of up to £5000 and/or a custodial sentence of up to six months.

Write to the CFO and if he ignores you and does nothing, question answered

[Donna]

thanks for all of the above comments,
I will try an phone tomorrow morning, I will politely ask for the highest person I can talk to,

I made the original complaint when I entered the building for one of its many uses Approx 2 years ago, and as I was once a member of an old workplace heath and safety team, I knew the minute I had entered the building that there were SO many things wrong, some came under HSE and some were Fire issues,

Without saying too much (as I am currently in litigation about this same building but for a different matter) I know the entrance that I "had" to use
shouldn't have had tables and chairs stacked in it! and I knew, that it was wrong for them to lock me into a corridor that had a locked external door (the first door I went in) then the Council employed staff member, overtook me to unlock the second door, (so at this time, I had a locked door behind me and a locked door in front of me, with stacked tables and chairs to my left...(my husband took note of them, but I could not hardly see anything as the lighting was too dim) this was again repeated until I got to the waiting room, and the door from the waiting room to the "said" entrance/exit was then re-locked by a key!

I then realised after getting my bearings that this was the only other exit apart from the front door (which has several carpeted internal steps, and then outside the building to get level with the pavement, has several more masonary steps.

The door which I will refer to WAS the fire exit....but it didn't have a green Fire exit Sign...until I had made the complaint and signage and lighting was brought up to legislation.....This had been going on for years and years.....How come it took a meer menber of the public to get this done! how come it had not been previously picked up on previous fire checks! Why...(you will have to come to your own conclusion on that one)

After the Fire service visited this premises in the NOVEMBER when the complaint had been made in the JULY, the various bits and bobs were done....its only when I re-visited the building to meet my Solicitor to measure somethings (again for a unrelated issue) did I realise that the newly signed Fire Exit...(thanks to my observation in the first Place) was still locked....and Now I cant get the fire service to even reply to me.

[Clevelandfire]

If, hand on heart now!, you seriously consider (please bear in mind that I do not the size, layout etc of this building) that peoples lives are being put at risk due to this locked door......... DIAL 999, ASK FOR THE FIRE SERVICE, REPORT IT!   ALL 999 calls are recorded and logged with "incident" numbers - this WILL acheive some action!

No no no no no absolutely NO


DO NOT  I REPEAT DO NOT use 999 to advise the service of a problem like this

Donna instead id advise you to find out the normal landline contact number for fire control (you will find this on the fire service's website or sometimes thompson local / yellow pages. Or phone local fire station and as k them to give it to you if you are having trouble finding it).

MONKEYBOY I am absolutely disgusted and frankly shocked you advocate the use of 999 system in this manner -  it is to be used for imminent emergencies only and not only that you may not get immediately in touch with the relevent control centre for the brigade you want to deal with. Its an absolute no no and you should know better.

By talking to control by the method I describe you guarantee you will be speaking to the right fire control centre and they will still log the call but menas the 999 lines are kept open.

[Donna]

I wouldnt, and didn't even consider it...panic not!
Nope I will keep, phoning and emailing...it will be quite interesting to see how far Ive got to go to get a fair question answered!
I would never do a 999 (unless for a real emergency)