Author Topic: Upgrading non fire rated doors to achieve 30 minutes compliance  (Read 27165 times)

Offline JC100

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Upgrading non fire rated doors to achieve 30 minutes compliance
« on: September 09, 2009, 08:33:41 AM »
All

Not sure if this has been covered before so apologies if it has.

Has anyone had any experience in the products used to upgrade doors? I work in residential social housing and on one particular FRA i have highlighted that a flat entrance door doesn't meet the required standard. I plan on having the door replaced with a FD30S door, but the resident wishes to keep her existing door - panelled oak door. She has found a company that have a couple of products http://www.envirograf.com/acrobat/042.pdf or http://www.envirograf.com/acrobat/038.pdfthat can achieve this. Have any of you come across this product previously and in your opinions, do you think this adequate if installed along with intumescent strips, smoke seals and self closer? I'm struggling to believe its sufficient.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 08:37:48 AM by smokescreen »

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Upgrading non fire rated doors to achieve 30 minutes compliance
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2009, 08:40:47 AM »
All

Not sure if this has been covered before so apologies if it has.

Has anyone had any experience in the products used to upgrade doors? I work in residential social housing and on one particular FRA i have highlighted that a flat entrance door doesn't meet the required standard. I plan on having the door replaced with a FD30S door, but the resident wishes to keep her existing door - panelled oak door. She has found a company that have a couple of products http://www.envirograf.com/acrobat/042.pdf or http://www.envirograf.com/acrobat/038.pdfthat can achieve this. Have any of you come across this product previously and in your opinions, do you think this adequate if installed along with intumescent strips, smoke seals and self closer? I'm struggling to believe its sufficient.
Yes. Costs about £100 per door when done properly. Envirograf stand over the process. There is a very comprehensive guide available for the upgrading process.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 08:43:42 AM by nearlythere »
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Offline wee brian

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Re: Upgrading non fire rated doors to achieve 30 minutes compliance
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2009, 09:19:25 AM »
When done properly is the key to this. Some of these products make slightly "over zealous" claims. I don't know about the product in question but it would be worth asking what tests they have.

They should be able to produce a test report or an assessment, based on tests, that shows the construction of door that the product will be suitable for.

If youre starting with an oak panel door then you are probably in with a chance but you need to consider how the door is jointed, how thick the panels are etc.

Offline JC100

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Re: Upgrading non fire rated doors to achieve 30 minutes compliance
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2009, 11:05:45 AM »
I've been talking with a 'sales person' from the company and this product seems ok and ticks the right boxes, its tested to BS 426:22 and from what i can gather, it will work on well fitting panelled doors provided that the thinnest point is no less than 12mm.

The thing i'm struggling with is; if this is so easy to do, and relatively cheap - why do we install fire doors and not just upgrade doors with this product?

I'd be interested to hear any fire safety officers thoughts?

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Upgrading non fire rated doors to achieve 30 minutes compliance
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2009, 11:21:40 AM »
I've been talking with a 'sales person' from the company and this product seems ok and ticks the right boxes, its tested to BS 426:22 and from what i can gather, it will work on well fitting panelled doors provided that the thinnest point is no less than 12mm.

The thing i'm struggling with is; if this is so easy to do, and relatively cheap - why do we install fire doors and not just upgrade doors with this product?

I'd be interested to hear any fire safety officers thoughts?
Because of the expense. You can buy a fire door for about £40 - £50 nowadays. The envirograf process costs around £100 per door, if done properly. And you still have to buy a door.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Bobbins

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Re: Upgrading non fire rated doors to achieve 30 minutes compliance
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2009, 04:55:51 PM »
I've been talking with a 'sales person' from the company and this product seems ok and ticks the right boxes, its tested to BS 426:22 and from what i can gather, it will work on well fitting panelled doors provided that the thinnest point is no less than 12mm.

The thing i'm struggling with is; if this is so easy to do, and relatively cheap - why do we install fire doors and not just upgrade doors with this product?

I'd be interested to hear any fire safety officers thoughts?

Get the test certificates and I think you will find them very interesting and not at all informative.

The amount of claims they are making need to be backed by a third party fire testing Lab and I doubt very much that they will want you to see what they have actually tested.

 The application of the product for any tests they have completed will be of a far superior quality to that achieved on site.

 I believe the BWF don’t like it and since the continually pregnant Sarah Beeny featured it on her show; questions have been asked of the manufacturers about the evidence they have to back up their claims.

Try the local council housing office; as I am pretty sure they can enforce a fire door change if they are not satisfied that a conversion will be acceptable.



Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: Upgrading non fire rated doors to achieve 30 minutes compliance
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2009, 08:06:37 PM »
Bear in mind that there is a difference between something that has been tested, and something that is certified. I can get a corn flakes packet tested to BS476. :)

The doors they submitted might have passed a test, but that doesn't means that anything you might fit the material to will. Notice the lack of any claims regarding meeting the requirements for FD30 or FD30S?

Technicalities aside, it may offer a reasonable solution to a specific problem but it needs a bit more thought than simply believing sales drivel.

Offline kurnal

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Re: Upgrading non fire rated doors to achieve 30 minutes compliance
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2009, 08:01:40 AM »
I am a big suporter of many of these products especially for heritage buildings where replacement is not an option. (and not just for big old substantial doors, sometimes a plank door with just a couple of ledges can be part of the listed provision.)
Yhey have convinced English Heritage and National Trust of the benefits. The key is accurrate examination of the test certificates to ensure that the  test reports and the samples tested are relevant to the case in point. Someimes companies put together large panels of various different materials and thicknesses to obtain a satisfactory test of various samples in one hit. If this is the case then you have to question the relevance of a panel test being used to justify door construction.

It is most unlikely that the manufacturer will have tested an identical door with the same joints, glues, beading profiles, density of timber as the one that you are upgrading. Provided the evidence derived from the test is used carefully it can inform your decision but will never be definitive. In heritage buildings we aim to use this information to improve a door TOWARDS a particular fire resisting standard, fully recognising that we can never say with absolute confidence what its fire rating will be.

Why face all this hassle if there are other options? But also beware- there are several door manufacturers marketing fire doors - particularly hardwood doors who have simply copied other peoples test results and never actually submitted their own product for test.Is this any better than a door upgrade?  If buying a purpose built fire door look for a reputable company such as a  member of the ASDMA, BWF certification or similar.

But as others have pointed out, for upgrades standards of application on site are absolutely critical.


Offline JC100

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Re: Upgrading non fire rated doors to achieve 30 minutes compliance
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2009, 08:10:06 AM »
Thanks for your help, some very valid points.

A colleague of mine contacted BWF and you're right - the application process for it to work is more complicated than the manufacturers claim. They also mentioned the door/s the product was tested on would have been chosen specifically for the test and it is unlikely this could be proven to work on any door it was applied to.

In the case in question, the fact that it is very unlikely to be proven to work on the door type in question, and the door itself isn't within a listed building and could be replaced; as an organisation wishing to comply with the RR(FS)O, i feel installing an FD30S door is the best solution.

Offline wee brian

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Re: Upgrading non fire rated doors to achieve 30 minutes compliance
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2009, 10:56:02 AM »
And you can get nice fire doors. they don't all look the same.

Bobbins

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Re: Upgrading non fire rated doors to achieve 30 minutes compliance
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2009, 10:54:02 AM »
i feel installing an FD30S door is the best solution.

Don’t just install a ‘fire door’ get a ‘certified fire door’ installed by a ‘certified installer’.

A cheap fire door installed by a bad joiner will probably be less effective than the door already in place.

Fire doors are not just about having the FD30s on it; it’s all about the whole job it has to perform and with fires in HMOs being at the forefront of the industries mind at the moment why not go for the extra confidence a certified job will bring.

Offline Big T

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Re: Upgrading non fire rated doors to achieve 30 minutes compliance
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2009, 10:11:29 AM »
I am going to change all the doors in a block of flats to 4 minute eggbbox construction and paint them with this intumescent paint. Should save us a couple of hundred thousand pounds. And they comply! Unscrupulous landlord alert!!!

If this miracle paint will upgrade any door to an FD30, why on earth would anyone ever install a fire door again?


Offline kurnal

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Re: Upgrading non fire rated doors to achieve 30 minutes compliance
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2009, 10:16:02 AM »
I have never seen any of the manufacturers claim to be able to upgrade eggbox doors.

However I am always willing to be proved wrong. Bobbis point is also very valid- and of course  ideally we should be talking about doorsets not just the door leaf.


Offline nearlythere

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Re: Upgrading non fire rated doors to achieve 30 minutes compliance
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2009, 11:28:11 AM »
I am going to change all the doors in a block of flats to 4 minute eggbbox construction and paint them with this intumescent paint. Should save us a couple of hundred thousand pounds. And they comply! Unscrupulous landlord alert!!!
If this miracle paint will upgrade any door to an FD30, why on earth would anyone ever install a fire door again?
Envirograf does not claim that it's product will upgrade every type of door. e.g. panel in doors should be minimum 6 mm thick.
Does everybody have access to it's publication on the product range and what it claims it can and cannot do?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline FSO

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