Principles of Fire Safety

[PhilB]

MOCTET is a good starting point i.e Management, occupants, construction, travel distance, exits & time to evacuate.

A bit dated I know but as a said a good starting point. Most people agree management is most important element yet for years we have been too concerned with travel distance and exit widths.

The most important consideration has got to be time versus tenability. Not a load of tables based on how long it took a lot of Scottish persons to leave a theatre!

I see Brian is now throwing insults at the fire service college. Many F&RS are reducing the training given to FSOs and reducing the number of FSOs.

The future is very scarey...poor guidance documents and fire safety offices full of incompetent inspectors.

[Slim Jim]

Steve - you threw me down a gauntlet on another thread - but Phil has beaten me to it!  You asked about first principles of fire safety.  Phil has highlighted MOCTET as a starting point for the common thread I mentioned.  This acronym is used to highlight the principal factors affecting means of escape.

I dare say we could add other dimensions like analysis & assessment of fire risk, tenability levels, etc.  The above-mentioned principles have been around for several years, so I'm surprised if you haven't heard of them before.

[Brian Downes]

OOh..I have not mentioned the FSC!!...I'm not throwing insults at anyone...I learn't a lot on my SFP Course, and on the odd seminar since. I have not been near the place for about 12 years!
I recently asked colleagues who have been down the old Cotswold Hilton for copies of their most recent notes, as the basis of training a new member of staff.
The notes asked more questions than they gave answers and didn't seem to cover first principles...oh no not the first principles again...
I decided to use Mr. Todd's book instead.
My problem is I am  a simple soul and a meteorite crashed into the earth and destroyed all my pals a few million years ago.
I'm just being gently and playfully cynical of the enlightened times in which we live where many seem to want to mend things that are not broken.
I thought the traditional fire service way to challenge the establishment was a bit of cynical banter?
At the end of the day, whatever the movers and shakers come up with it will be the minions like me who have to make it work.

MOCTET as first principles?...now that is a proposition for you...I am sure those far more worthy than a pilgrim such as I will pick that one up and run with it...I'm going to keep my head down

[steve walker]

Steve,
         You obviusly did not seek a spiritual interpretation whilst reading the book...you maybe need to spend some time actuallty sat at the feet of one of Guru's.
I am sure the famous Mr. Todd could oblige, or maybe Ian Gough who contributes regularly to this forum.
The first principles are more a state of mind than a set of rules.
No ground is completely solid or uncontroversial...if it were we would all be out of jobs...Local Authority & Private Sector!
Seek enlightenment in the Craft Grasshopper

Brian,

Believe me I have sought divine intervention while interpreting fire safety law and guidance.

"First principles more a state of mind", hmmm, I think that I am after a less spiritual answer, you may be right; but this does make them hard to pin down. Unless we can make our subject a bit more objective then we are at the mercy of high ranking (rolling?) "movers and shakers" who have little grasp of the subject and for whom appearance is more important than substance.

[steve walker]

MOCTET is a good starting point i.e Management, occupants, construction, travel distance, exits & time to evacuate.

A bit dated I know but as a said a good starting point. Most people agree management is most important element yet for years we have been too concerned with travel distance and exit widths.

The most important consideration has got to be time versus tenability. Not a load of tables based on how long it took a lot of Scottish persons to leave a theatre!

I see Brian is now throwing insults at the fire service college. Many F&RS are reducing the training given to FSOs and reducing the number of FSOs.

The future is very scarey...poor guidance documents and fire safety offices full of incompetent inspectors.

Phil,

I agree that time versus tenability is the key factor in escape but is it a principle? MOCTET is a convenient reminder of factors to consider but they are not principles. I think that the important job of principles is that they can be used to judge between two or more proposed safety measures. Is one more logical, consistent, understandable, verifiable or proportionate than the other?

I can see that perhaps something is either logical or not. Are there degrees of logic? Still, it is an important test and when discussing the merits of something (lobbies?) the discussion could relate to these principles.

[Brian Downes]

Steve,
         Oh all right, if I have got to be serious for a minute...I think Colin Todd's book is jammed full of the First Principles, being the concepts of fire safety,  historical or scientific that most professionals accept as a basis of best practice.
I don't think you can draw up a table of first principles, they evolve with science and technolgy, and develop as professionals reflect on their practice, maybe that is the spiritual element!
I would suggest that the movers and shakers who want to depart away from accepted best practice need to postulate why the changes are justified.

[johndoe]

Steve
Why are you bothering you are an enforcer and therefore a compliance checker. if they comply or at least try leave them if they dont enforce
simple even for a large metro brigade

[steve walker]

"The truth is rarely pure and never simple"

Oscar Wilde, The Importance of Being Earnest, 1895, Act I

[colin todd]

Brian, I am glad you found the book helpful. You are right about its original intention, but, funnily enough IFPO made almost exactly the same comments as you when they reviewed it soon after publication. ( Sorry, I could not remember for whom we obtained a copy!)
Steve, Try the timelines in BS 7974.

[steve walker]

Thanks Colin, I will check it out on Monday

[steve walker]

The BS 7974 series is certainly a challenge to get through; I don’t pretend that I have really got a handle on it. But interestingly, I couldn’t find a simple set of principles. It starts off with a nice definition of Fire Engineering “application of scientific and engineering principles to the protection of people, property and the environment from fire” and never says what these principles are.

A search in the BSs of the word “principle” brings up many hits but usually the word adds nothing to the meaning of the sentence that it is in; maybe it is chucked in to add a bit of authority or weight.

As a subject, there is a danger of it seeming too hypothetical, of no practical use and getting bogged down in what words mean. Since I don’t appear to have stimulated much debate I will bow out gracefully.

Thanks to those who have contributed.

[colin todd]

Maybe the PDs under 7974 would help you?

[greg]

Before. you go try this as a principle.

All persons within a building should have a means by which they can leave the building safely and unaided in the event of fire.

[PhilB]

what if they need assistance???

[greg]

Take out the unaided part.