Author Topic: Re: UK PROSECUTIONS discussion  (Read 154960 times)

Offline PhilB

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Re: UK PROSECUTIONS discussion
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2009, 10:32:30 PM »
Well said Proff

Offline colin todd

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Re: UK PROSECUTIONS discussion
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2009, 07:32:56 PM »
Kurnal, written text cannot be slanderous but it can be libellous. It may well be libellous to allege that sworn evidence to a Court had an agenda that the Court itself might prohibit.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline colin todd

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Re: UK PROSECUTIONS discussion
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2009, 11:28:30 PM »
Although not a prosecution, the following information regarding an appeal against an Enforcement Notice may be of interest, particularly to those who deal with fire safety legislation in HMOs in Scotland. It is the content of a press release from Lothian and Borders Fire and Rescue Service, who retained the services of an expert witness, once described on a (now deleted) post in this thread as "from North  of the Border", though his boyish good looks would probably have better identified him.

OUT OF COURT SETTLEMENT SECURES SPRINKLERS IN EDINBURGH HOUSE OF MULTIPLE OCCUPANCY

The Lothian and Borders Fire and Rescue Service secured sprinklers in a number of Edinburgh HMO’s after a landlord appealed against an enforcement notice in Edinburgh last month.
On the morning of the case, QC’s and expert witnesses from both sides agreed on a minute of amendment to install a domestic suppression sprinkler system and a number of other fire safety measures on the lower level of a two level HMO to compensate for the lack of a second means of escape.
The Scottish regulations “guide for small premises providing sleeping accommodation” requires two means of escape from any premises providing sleeping accommodation which fall within the scope of The Fire (Scotland) Act 2005, as amended including any HMO  which is over 7.5 meters. Due to the construction of tenement properties within the city of Edinburgh a second means of escape can be extremely difficult to achieve and as such a number of alternate solutions including domestic sprinklers are offered by the fire authority to compensate for this recommendation.
HMO accommodation is traditionally utilised for students and as such the fire authority consider these premises a higher risk occupancy where maintenance of the means of escape through good housekeeping and self closing doors can sometimes be very difficult to achieve.
So far, a number of Edinburgh landlords have taken up the option of domestic suppression system which proves to be a cost effective solution considering the potential income that can be generated in properties of this type.
The legal costs were however contested in court and the sheriff found in favour of the fire authority and as such full and considerable costs were attributed to the appealing landlord.
Tom Kane Group Manager Community Safety says  “this case, although settled out of court, gives us more confidence when recommending domestic sprinklers in HMO’s which we consider high risk. More importantly it ensures a safer living environment for our young people during their student years in the city of Edinburgh”. 
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline jokar

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Re: UK PROSECUTIONS discussion
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2009, 09:11:38 AM »
Thats good news then.  You can still die in a fire in an HMO from smoke inhalation but the property will be still standing afterwards.

Offline colin todd

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Re: UK PROSECUTIONS discussion
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2009, 07:13:47 PM »
I must be missing something. Has the Scottish education system let me down so badly in my understanding of fire, such that people are really exposed to die in these HMOs, notwithstanding the rather eloquently expressed views of my good friends in L&B????????
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline jokar

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Re: UK PROSECUTIONS discussion
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2009, 08:22:20 PM »
Well, the grammar is suffering but we would call in english grammar so you are probably okay.

Offline colin todd

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Re: UK PROSECUTIONS discussion
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2009, 09:50:07 PM »
Is call in (sic) another version of COLIN, or just a typo, and I am still waiting to hear how the people are going to die of smoke inhalation.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline jokar

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Re: UK PROSECUTIONS discussion
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2009, 09:34:09 AM »
Doesn't fire produce smoke and toxic gas then? Most people die in fire from smoke inhalation or so I am led to believe by the experts.

Just a typo.

Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: UK PROSECUTIONS discussion
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2009, 02:46:20 PM »
I would assume that the premises will still have FR doors protecting the escape route/bedrooms.

Offline kurnal

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Re: Re: UK PROSECUTIONS discussion
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2009, 03:09:25 PM »
Sounds like a sensible outcome for an existing building to me, and as the poor landlord had costs awarded against him perhaps the expert witness  will be able to call in a competent person to have his squeaky wheel fixed.

How would we all feel if the proposal had been for sprinklers in lieu of the second staircase for a new build? Or a conversion? I am reminded of the BAFSA / ABE  proposals on appropriate trade offs for sprinklers.

Offline jokar

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Re: UK PROSECUTIONS discussion
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2009, 06:33:05 PM »
How does the drainage work?  Does it up or lower the insurance premium for fire or flood?

Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: Re: UK PROSECUTIONS discussion
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2009, 08:10:02 PM »
How would we all feel if the proposal had been for sprinklers in lieu of the second staircase for a new build? Or a conversion?

It happens quite a lot.

Jokar, the sprinkler system activating in a fire will usually cause considerably less damage than leaving it to the FRS to deal with a fully developed fire.

Offline jokar

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Re: UK PROSECUTIONS discussion
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2009, 09:13:12 PM »
Gosh, what are you saying.  I am sure that the professional firefighters of the UK will be so annoyed by your assumption that they cannot extinguish fires and that they cause lots of water damage.  The next thing you say could be that a good fire will cause a car park.

Offline colin todd

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Re: UK PROSECUTIONS discussion
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2009, 01:21:51 AM »
Jokar, Well, like Civvy, I always thought that Dennis was just the name of Margaret Thatcher's other half, but I heard tell that the smokey stuff is not too good for your elf. But I am still waiting to hear what your point is. Civvy, old chap, yes there are fire doors.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline hammer1

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Re: UK PROSECUTIONS discussion
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2009, 03:00:04 PM »
So basically the fire detection system currently in place (if there is one) and the passive fire protection (partition, fire doors etc) were deemed not sufficient enough to provide early warning of fire and fire containment to preserve life safety. The management was also deemed not sufficient enough to control the housekeeping of the single means of escape (I take it there is a lot of ignition sources in the corridor then??).

Lastly the students themselves were deemed not intelligent enough to have a certain amount of responsibility themselves in keeping fire doors shut and keeping the means of escape free of obstruction and most importantly reducing the risk of fire starting in the first place  (I take it no first aid fire fighting appliances are in place and no fire emergency plan that is communicated to tenants)

All of the above and other issues I take it were not in place or insufficient ?? as sprinklers are more of a re-active measure (fire already started) than a pro-active measure.

How many people live in this HMO, by the statement it seems a two storey HMO.

Just my humble non expert view on the case.

Also at what state and level of  development does a fire have to be before a domestic sprinkler is activated?? Are they saying persons would not evacuate when the automatic fire alarm detection is raised, hence having the sprinkler as a back measure to ensure life safety??

I say this because if the big issue is fire doors being kept open, then surely the smoke will enter the escape route and filling it prior to the correct temperature of the flame being reached before the sprinklers go into action (If the furnishing is old school and pre The Furniture and Furnishings (Fire) (Safety) Regulations 1988 then that other poster would be correct in the toxic fumes would kill anyone in the corridor way before the sprinklers came into action)


Surely if this IS the way forward then 1,000s of LHA properties across the UK will require the same enforcement if adopted.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 04:51:25 PM by hammer1 »