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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire related queries from non specialists => Topic started by: Tom Sutton on February 03, 2014, 08:57:49 PM
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I'm currently about to fit a bwf fd30 front fire door to my property as it has to be up to regulation standard for council insurance purposes. I'm unsure whether I need to fit 2 or 3 hinges to this door and also may I use a perko style door closer or will it have to be a overhead style closer? if using a perko style closer how do I prove its fire rating for inspection purposes or do I not need to so long as it closes the latched door?
Another query any observations.
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You need three hinges (preferably tested as part of the door set) and a closer to BSEN 1154.
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Tom
the newer perko is fire rated as I recall, much more discrete
davo
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Tom
the newer perko is fire rated as I recall, much more discrete
davo
Some are davo, but they cost a fortune.
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Another issue you have to consider with Perko/chain type devices is that they do tend to slam the door if not adjusted correctly and can cause problems for little fingers or alternatively take the door out of the frame over time!
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Tom
the newer perko is fire rated as I recall, much more discrete
davo
Many are fire rated Davo and claim compliance with BS476 which is fine. But BS476 is not BS EN 1154.
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The Perko Powermatic Concealed Fire Door Closer is CE marked and Certifire Approved CF370 also complies to BS EN 1154:1997 therefore it is acceptable the other perkos are not.
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The Perko Powermatic Concealed Fire Door Closer is CE marked and Certifire Approved CF370 also complies to BS EN 1154:1997 therefore it is acceptable the other perkos are not.
I Concur with TS. Some do comply at about £150-£180 per closer last time I looked, so they only tend to be used where the option of overhead closers isn't available.
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Tom
the newer perko is fire rated as I recall, much more discrete
davo
Many are fire rated Davo and claim compliance with BS476 which is fine. But BS476 is not BS EN 1154.
And what is the issue if it complies with BS476 and and not BS EN 1154?
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And what is the issue if it complies with BS476 and and not BS EN 1154?
BS EN 1154 Building hardware. Controlled door closing devices. Requirements and test methods, I am not sure how BS 476 would apply, which part for a start.
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Tom. What do you mean the perko is fire rated? I've seem perko being sold as complying with BS476. But that is different to 1154.
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The original enquiry said it was a "bwf" door - which probably means it comes from a BWF Certifire registered company. They should therefore ask whoever supplied the door leaf to ask for the certification documentation & installation instructions. Failing that the manufacturer will be named on the label (assuming they haven't removed it) & they should contact them for the installation instructions directly. The Certifire documentation will probably tell them what closers are compatible with the particular door leaf they've chosen.
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Tom. What do you mean the perko is fire rated? I've seem perko being sold as complying with BS476. But that is different to 1154.
Once a self-closer has closed the fire door, the latch holds the door shut, and the self-closer is redundant which should be before the fire reaches the door, so why do you need a fire resisting test. The only way I can see how a perko needs to be fire resistance tested is to subject a fire door to BS 476 pt 22 with a perko installed and the without the perko and see if it affects the performance of the fire door?
BS EN 1154 is the standard for self-closers and I cannot think why you would need to test them to BS 476 other than what I said above.
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Advantages of 'Perkos' (generic description - other makes of jamb-mounted chain closers are available...)!
- Cheap(ish)
- Aesthetics (concealed);
- Slightly more difficult to disable than face-fixed overhead closers (where you just unscrew the arm).
Disadvantages:
- Take chunks out of the door (might need extra protection e.g. intumescent gaskets);
- Non-hydraulic models cause slamming (& this gets very annoying in a domestic setting);
- Difficult to adjust so that they reliably overcome a latch (particularly a night latch) - again, without slamming;
- questionable whether they'd reliably hold an unlatched door shut in a fire (e.g. a flat door 'on the latch').
Mechanically, the overhead closers are much better devices.
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In my experience they can 'bounce' the door off the latch, trap fingers and on a few occasions have removed the door frame from the surrounding wall. Many authorities do not accept single chain type closers particularly in HMOs.
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Going right back to Tom's original statement - the enquiry was for a bwf certified "front" fire door. Are we being a bit simplistic in assuming that this is within a block - ie an internal door? If it's an external door it will have to be a CE marked external doorset - frame, hardware etc all supplied from a single source. While there are arguments being bandied around the industry at the moment about whether you can or can't CE mark an external fire door the simple fact remains, if it's an external door, it MUST be supplied CE marked and as a complete entity. As others have commented elsewhere in this thread, if it's a door from a BWF-Certifire manufacturer, they (the manufacturer) are responsible for providing the purchaser with the relevant information that will enable him to turn that leaf into a proper fire doorset. You can debate until the cows come home about how many hinges, which type of closer etc, but the fact remains that the door will have been tested and proven with a given range of components. Any deviation from this given range has the potential to negate the fire performance.