first stage alarm

[Ron Winwood]

I hope one of you good people out there can help??
I have fitted an inteligent addressable system in a shop unit - linked to main building control panel - My problem is that my panel resets in first stage detection after 10 mins, if no further (smoke) - i have been
informed that this does not conform to BS5839 part 1 2002 - i cannot see how this could cause any problems

Ron

[Graeme]

Hi Ron

What Control panel and protocol are you using?

What size of shop etc?

[Ron Winwood]

Sorry i should have been more specific, It is a RAFIKI SITA 200 plus using total of 8 multi detectors/sounders
the shop unit is quite small - appx, 10m x 10m with 3 detectors in roof void, 2 in food prep, 1 above counter/servery and 1 in each store room - it is classed as L1. It notifys main panel instantly and if smoke has ceased within 10 minutes it resets. Double knock or MCP operation puts it into second (full alarm) stage.
I cannot understand what problems can arise as the centres fire and security respond within 3 minutes of both stage 1 and stage 2
P.S i also do not have zone indicators lit in stage 1 - but full and clear text description on my panel - has somebody got something against me
Many thanks for your time effort
Ron.

[Ron Winwood]

I forget to mention its a INTELLIGENT ADDRESSABLE SYSTEM

Ron

[Wiz]

Ron,

I'm sure that the advice you have been given i.e that that the recommendations of BS5839 part 1 2002 do not recognise this as being a compliant operation is correct. It is generally never a good idea that any fire alarm system automatically resets itself.

However the BS is only a set of recommendations and guidelines. They can be ignored or varied as much as you want. However ignoring/varying the BS recommendations is not advised unless whoever does so, can back up their argument for doing so, with knowledge and experience in many disciplines.

The simple fact is that any variation from BS should be pre-agreed with all relevant parties including, at least, the building user, the building owner, the building insurer and any licensing authorities etc. etc.

If the mode of operation the system you have described is not suitable for the type and use of building that you mention, I am sure there are many members on this site, who have the experience in these matters who will give you the correct advice.

I can't believe that this mode of operation has been decided upon without pre-agreement of all relevant parties, but if it has been, then it theoretically it does not comply with BS5839 because the 'bits' that don't are not covered by a variation.

p.s. the above applies to all systems whether addressable or non-addressable!!!

[Graeme]

Hi Ron

I don't think the world is against you but your set up is normally aimed at buildings with a high level of unwanted alarms i.e a Halls of residence.This would have to be agreed by all relevant parties too.
By using multisensors you have already reduced the potential of unwanted alarms.

[Ron Winwood]

Thanks all for replying, I have been informed that i have to take the system out at my cost and replaced by another company - and being made to look stupid.
The only specification i was given by the shopping centre management stated "system must be to BS5839
2002 part 1" and must have first and second stage alarm both activating the bulidings main alarm - which it did
- no mention in any way regarding cut off time
I sent the spec, to my distributors and they advised on type of panel - were they wrong  or right ?? does the panel meet BS5839 2002 part 1 yes or no
Any ideas how i get out of this mess

Many thanks all,

Ron

[Ron Winwood]

P.S i rang the local fire officer, he checked the cause and effect for the building and again no mention of unlimited time for "stage one"

[kurnal]

Ron
Are you sure your panel cannot be reconfigured to revert to full evacuaton alarm after a period rather than resetting itself?
I do  not know anything at all about rafiki panels but many intelligent systems can be configured to operate on a first and second knock principle. BS5839 recognises that a pre alarm can be very valuable in reducing unwanted signals and allows a delay of up to 6 minutes between pre alarm or first knock during which time the cause can be investigated and the system reset manually to cancel the alarm if appropriate. Just maybe your panel could be configured in this way instead?
It sounds from what you say like you have to satisfy the landlord of the centre rather than the fire authority over this alarm system. Landlords can be very difficult as they often set very demanding and rigid rules rules which can become very outdated but they are in a very powerful position because you have no right of appeal. Fire Authorities have to be a little more open minded as their decisions can be challenged through the appeals process. I would have thought that the landlords concerns were for property protection rather than life safety though.

Does the panel conform to BSEN54? If so you may be able to push european compliance?

[Ron Winwood]

Thanks kurnal,
My fag input has just been dropped from 60 a day to 10.
The Rafiki sita 200 plus seems to be one of the best arround for the prevention of false alarms,
The system is doing everything you mentioned in your reply.
if you get a minute visit their website.
rafikiprotection.com

Ron

[Graeme]

If you asked the distributor for one thing and got another then i would take that up with them.

As Kurnal says it should be able to be reprogrammed.

[Wiz]

Ron,
At your initial enquiry I assumed that you were asking if what you had complied with BS, which it doesn't, but now it would seem that you are saying that you are being asked to replace the installed system with a different system that does comply.

I also don't know much about the Rafiki panel but I would be absolutely stunned if the automatic reset facility was a standard non-programmable function. If it was, it wouldn't comply to BS5839 and Rafiki are a large enough company to not make such a simple mistake.

It must be that you have either asked the supplier or commissioner to 'configure' this panel to operate in the manner it does.

Therefore, if you now don't want it to operate in this way, ask a Rafiki commissioning engineer to reconfigure it to the operation that will keep your customer happy.

But please be aware, that if whatever he now asks for doesn't comply with BS5839, you should advise him that it needs a Variation agreement from all relevant parties.

With respect to Kurnal's (my hero) answer please remember that most analogue addressable panels provide a warning called Pre-Alarm which is not a fire condition but a fault condition. It is a warning of the analogue value approaching the Fire warning level and can be useful in identifying a detector that is so dirty that it might soon give an 'unwanted fire alarm condition' when there is not a fire. (in a real fire, the pre-alarm fault warning normally operates a few seconds before a full fire alarm condition). In true double-knock systems it usually takes two detectors or more to be in fire condition before it is considered to be a full fire condition.

Therefore, whilst it is common for the operation of the first detector in a double-knock system to provide some warning, and this might be called by some people as a Pre-Alarm condition (when it should really be called First Stage/First Knock), this should not be confused with the common pre-alarm fault condition that is available on many panels.

[Rich C]

Ron,
Here's an extract from
http://www.rafikiprotection.com/article1.html

At the design stage, fire zones are designated as "dwelling" or "communal". Detectors in dwelling zones (e.g. apartments hotel rooms etc.) are enabled with the "logical link" feature. This then allows the control panel to be simply programmed with a variable time alarm confirmation period.

In the event of a fire being detected in a dwelling only the local (room) sounder will operate to alarm occupants of that particular dwelling. The control panel will then carry out a number of checks over this period (which may be 2 minutes, for example) to confirm the detector is still in alarm and is a genuine fire and not a false alarm generated by cooking fumes, steam etc.

If during this checking period the detector ceases to signal alarm the control panel will automatically reset the detector/ sounder and the system will revert to its normal state.If, however, at the end of the confirmation check the detector is still generating an alarm signal the control panel will instantly sound all alarms in the building for evacuation.

Detectors sensing a fire or call point activation in communal areas instantly generate a full alarm throughout the building.

End of extract
Ask your commissioning engineer to reconfigure the zones you're using to a "communal" type, then you will get a "latched" alarm that will conform to your landlords requirement .

Regards
Rich

[David Rooney]

Ron, who designed this system?

Presumably it's a recent installation, so where is the agreed specification, cause and effects, etc?

Who decided how the system should operate?

Has it been certificated correctly and have the variations from BS been documented ??

[Allen Higginson]

You may find that the main building has a preference that all systems are the same throughout.However (as stated) the requirements should be achieved via proper configuration programming of your existing system.
However you will probably find that the "house" company get their arm in for connecting you onto the main system (bad boy - imagine using someone elses gear indeed!!).