Support of cable to BS5839-1

[kurnal]

Wiz
Just to keep you up to date lucky escaped by using matrons stockings as a rope. She has to go commando now. When she bends over to tuck us in  at night I get reminded  of a photo I once saw of Dave smiling but I cant make the connection. Pass the  methyl bromide.

[Thebeardedyorkshireman]

Kurnal
I have the dodgy video of matron pretending to be a student who cant hear the bells and needs to be rescued (see the other posts)
I will be away from the ranch for a few days plus the fire expo. If I email the material down to you, can you forward it on to the other guy,when and if he confirms its what he requires please? If this is acceptable, just ping me an email in order that I have your details.
Regards
Dave
ps must be the other Dave as I have never smiled in my life

[kurnal]

Perhaps it was indigestion then. Have sent the mail thanks.

[Graeme]

Thanks for all the replies.

It looks like there is no evidence against using wall plugs,which i,m sure will be a relief to most fire alarm installers.
There is not  always going to be cable trays in bulidings which are not new builds and trunking is a cost effective containment.

If wall plugs were to become a un-approved method of fixing,then this would be a major headache and increase installation prices.

[Wiz]

Sensible input and considered opinions to Graeme's question. Even a bit of humour. This is how forums should work. Well done everyone.

[Fishy]

Thanks for all the replies.

It looks like there is no evidence against using wall plugs,which i,m sure will be a relief to most fire alarm installers.
There is not  always going to be cable trays in bulidings which are not new builds and trunking is a cost effective containment.

If wall plugs were to become a un-approved method of fixing,then this would be a major headache and increase installation prices.

...but Graeme... BS 5839-1, including the December 2004 amendment, states quite clearly that the "Methods of cable support should be non-combustible and such that circuit integrity will not be reduced below that afforded by the cable used, and should withstand a similar temperature and duration to that of the cable, while maintaining adequate support".  Plastic plugs are combustible; are an essential component of the "cable support" and therefore don't comply.

[Markymark]

May I just quickly pass comment. I have seen (at first hand) large storage heaters "fall" off the wall due to the plastic plugs melting. These storage heaters are extremly heavy and thus at least 8 fixings are required. The plastic plugs must not be used but fibre rawl plugs are to be used as these do not melt. It will add a cost to fire alarm installations but I am not sure of their performance in much higher temperatures.

[Graeme]

Hi Fishy

Its' that exact clause which made me start this topic.What other options are there  for fixing a cable to a brick wall?

thanks

G

[Wiz]

May I just quickly pass comment. I have seen (at first hand) large storage heaters "fall" off the wall due to the plastic plugs melting. These storage heaters are extremly heavy and thus at least 8 fixings are required. The plastic plugs must not be used but fibre rawl plugs are to be used as these do not melt. It will add a cost to fire alarm installations but I am not sure of their performance in much higher temperatures.

Very interesting post. Can anyone carry out some tests to see if fibre style wall plug fixings operate better than plastic style wall plug fixings in a fire?

[Wiz]

Thanks for all the replies.

It looks like there is no evidence against using wall plugs,which i,m sure will be a relief to most fire alarm installers.
There is not  always going to be cable trays in bulidings which are not new builds and trunking is a cost effective containment.

If wall plugs were to become a un-approved method of fixing,then this would be a major headache and increase installation prices.

...but Graeme... BS 5839-1, including the December 2004 amendment, states quite clearly that the "Methods of cable support should be non-combustible and such that circuit integrity will not be reduced below that afforded by the cable used, and should withstand a similar temperature and duration to that of the cable, while maintaining adequate support".  Plastic plugs are combustible; are an essential component of the "cable support" and therefore don't comply.

Fishy, the words 'non-combustible' were only added in the December 2004 ammendment and I personally found the addition somewhat confusing, since the original clause already seemed to be recommending that fire resistance integrity should be equal to that of the cable it was supporting.

Surely, everything is combustible if the right temperature is applied to it?

If the word combustible was to be used shouldn't it have said something like 'the cable support should be no more combustible than the cable it is supporting' !

Is anything really non-combustible?

[John Webb]

It is possible to get quite small expanding 'Rawlbolts' which are entirely of metal construction and which do not need a hole much bigger than that of a plastic wall plug. Could this be the solution?

[Graeme]

found these

http://www.b2bchinasources.com/China-Manufacturers-16444/Metal-Wall-Plug.html

don't know how much they will be though.

[Graeme]

and

http://www.uk.prysmian.com/en_GB/cables_systems/energy/catalogue_pdf/firefix/Firefix_singleclip.pdf;jsessionid=GD0ZD2FUZ5RRFFYKJOPCFFA

might go for this as it look better fun and i can be like all the lazy joiners nowadays with their nail guns.

[John Webb]

Screwfix www.screwfix.com do a number of all-metal wall plugs, mostly by Fischer, for brick, concrete and plasterboard. These are available to take M6, M8 and M10 standard threaded screws. For example, a 'Drop-in anchor' for an M6 screw is £9.50 per 100 inc. VAT.

An M6 'Sleeve anchor' requires an 8mm hole and is sold at £48 for 500.

There is also a 'Nail Anchor' which requires a 6mm hole and has a large diameter head to, I presume, allow it to be driven into the hole. Of most interest to us it says 'Fire-rated F120' - again this is a Fischer fitting. (If you have a Spring 2007 printed Screwfix catalogue, bottom left of page 42.)

[Graeme]

Hi John

Can you paste the web page for the fischer metal wall plugs please?

i can only find nylon ones.

Thanks