Strange fire alarm system in the New Year 2008 ???

[Chris Houston]

Well, he listed the parts that the system comprises of and doesn't mention any battery, so that seemed clear enough to me and consistent with the old systems I have seen in schools myself.  Perhaps for the avoidance of any further doubt Benzerari can confirm that I have understood him correctly?

[Graeme]

i have just wrote that on my sheets in the past but i,m informed that you have to list them every service.

[AnthonyB]

Also I never said a non BS5839-1 system had to be removed - in fact the opposite!

Indeed in a risk assessment a system that did comply with BS5839 could require alteration/replacement if it was unsuitable for the risks!

Lets be clear- as far as the law is concerned:

1)Does your system (of whatever type, BS5839, CP1019, none of the above) provide adequate means of fire warning & detection to protect the relevant persons from the risks on site?

2)Does the system have a back up power supply?


If you answer yes to (1) & (2) then you are OK

If you answer no to (1) your system will need alterations or replacement

If you answer no to (2) the whole system must be replaced

As for 'absolute requirement' that is reference to the use of MUST in the law - not 'should', or 'as far as reasonably practicable', or 'where relevant', in other words you have got to do it regardless - it is one of the few throwbacks to the old prescriptive legislationof the Factories Act et al that still exists, most current law is, by being risk based, full of should/maybe/where practicable etc

[Benzerari]

Well, he listed the parts that the system comprises of and doesn't mention any battery, so that seemed clear enough to me and consistent with the old systems I have seen in schools myself.  Perhaps for the avoidance of any further doubt Benzerari can confirm that I have understood him correctly?

Yes the fire alarm system in that school have standby batteries, but would that classify it as acceptable system and then there is no need for replacement, regardless of other requirements?

Is that all the health and safety regulation 1996 is obliging?

What do you think if some one just built up a basic circuit fed from both mains and standby batteries to monitor fire condition only? would that be classied as acceptable system, in terms of health and safety regulations. and none acceptable in terms of BS5839?

[Benzerari]

Also I never said a non BS5839-1 system had to be removed - in fact the opposite!

Indeed in a risk assessment a system that did comply with BS5839 could require alteration/replacement if it was unsuitable for the risks!

Lets be clear- as far as the law is concerned:

1)Does your system (of whatever type, BS5839, CP1019, none of the above) provide adequate means of fire warning & detection to protect the relevant persons from the risks on site?

2)Does the system have a back up power supply?


If you answer yes to (1) & (2) then you are OK

Do you mean by this:

That the health and safety regulation 1996 is looking after fire condition only, if YES what about if the sounder and zone circuits are cut off, the system would be decapitated from the power supply with NO warning and that is the case of the school I am talking about.

If you answer no to (2) the whole system must be replaced

Could we just add a standby batteries instead of replacing the system?

[Chris Houston]

Well, he listed the parts that the system comprises of and doesn't mention any battery, so that seemed clear enough to me and consistent with the old systems I have seen in schools myself.  Perhaps for the avoidance of any further doubt Benzerari can confirm that I have understood him correctly?

Yes the fire alarm system in that school have standby batteries

Sorry then Wiz, it seems you were correct and that I am guilty of making a wrong assumption.

[Chris Houston]

Well, he listed the parts that the system comprises of and doesn't mention any battery, so that seemed clear enough to me and consistent with the old systems I have seen in schools myself.  Perhaps for the avoidance of any further doubt Benzerari can confirm that I have understood him correctly?

Yes the fire alarm system in that school have standby batteries, but would that classify it as acceptable system and then there is no need for replacement, regardless of other requirements?

Is that all the health and safety regulation 1996 is obliging?

What do you think if some one just built up a basic circuit fed from both mains and standby batteries to monitor fire condition only? would that be classied as acceptable system, in terms of health and safety regulations. and none acceptable in terms of BS5839?

There is an obligation to comply with the requirements of the Signs and Signals Regulations.

A home made fire alarm system may comply with the signs and signals regulations, but would be very unlikely to meet all the recommendations of British Standard 5839.  The acceptability of such a system would be the decision of the competant person when they do their fire safety risk assessment, but it would seem folly to not design something new to the relevant local standard (i.e. BS 5839) and I would recommend against this.

[Benzerari]

Well, he listed the parts that the system comprises of and doesn't mention any battery, so that seemed clear enough to me and consistent with the old systems I have seen in schools myself.  Perhaps for the avoidance of any further doubt Benzerari can confirm that I have understood him correctly?

Yes the fire alarm system in that school have standby batteries, but would that classify it as acceptable system and then there is no need for replacement, regardless of other requirements?

Is that all the health and safety regulation 1996 is obliging?

What do you think if some one just built up a basic circuit fed from both mains and standby batteries to monitor fire condition only? would that be classied as acceptable system, in terms of health and safety regulations. and none acceptable in terms of BS5839?

There is an obligation to comply with the requirements of the Signs and Signals Regulations.

A home made fire alarm system may comply with the signs and signals regulations, but would be very unlikely to meet all the recommendations of British Standard 5839.  The acceptability of such a system would be the decision of the competant person when they do their fire safety risk assessment, but it would seem folly to not design something new to the relevant local standard (i.e. BS 5839) and I would recommend against this.

What about the basic system discribed below would you recomend against too:

It is a school with very old fire alarm system, it is sort of manual fire alarm system, the panel is the power supply itself with no control buttons and no indicator LEDs at all, a small basic PCB circuit inside, with one zone and sounder circuits, when tested the call points alarm went off normally, but the system can be silenced just by puling off the test key, there are no detectors at all in the whole school. Only fire exits, corridors and main entrance have call points, also in the corridors between call point and the next one to it, there is more than 45m. The sounder and zone circuits are not monitored for short and open circuits...

Also according to the Fire Log Book I  checked in there, it seems the service has not been done since 2002 except the weekly bell test records stating Bell test done OK but no trace of which MCP been tested. The fire alarm system is serving the school bells too, it is linked to the school bell’s timer which has two buttons for start and stop, I guess, they where doing their bell tests through that school bell’s Buttons and not from MCPs in rotations…
The MCPs are a mixture of very old types, with different types of screws, and few KAC ones… so you need:  Flat screw driver, Philips one, Alan key and KAC test key… to do 100% test.

Yes the fire alarm system in that school have standby batteries

Particularly where most of our service sheets as you know are mentioning in little writing in the bottom, stating i.e. that: 'The servicing is to be done in accordance to the standard BS5839...'. Some times I think I would not sign in these circumstances a certificate and hand it to customer...
What do you think?

[Benzerari]

I remember 4 years ago I had been several times in a situation where the main PCB board of the panel was gone, in a week end and at night, I did not have choice, I used to build up a very basic circuit to combine the zone circuits with the sounder circuits and make the MCPs operation working OK, just by using external relays and resistors, and by using the silence button... the circuit had been tested OK, and it was just for temporary measures till the next working day so we can order a proper brand new panel...

The main point is that, I had been told that time that the circuit was not acceptable just because it was not complying to BS5839... due to a lots of monitoring are required too... and if any incident happens I am the first responsible...

so what is the difference between this basic circuit and the very old basic fire alarm system which still in use in that school?

In the circumstances you mention, if your provided solution put the system in a better position than how you found it, and there was no better solution you were capable of providing, and you eventually effected the proper repair in the quickest time practically possible, I would put it to the judge that you had done the very best that you could have been expected to achieve and should be found not guilty!

Many thanks wiz for being not guilty but the main concern is the following:

What is the difference between this basic circuit and the very old basic fire alarm system which still in use in that school?

[Benzerari]

I invite every one to look at the link below, and please let me know what grade the fire alarm system in that school is classified, because it seems that the grades of fire alarm systems from A to F mentioned in this article are still in use nowadays.

here is the link and what do you think?

www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/WiringMatters/index.cfm#17

[Graeme]

Grades A-F come under BS5839 part 6 for Dwellings.

Schools go by part 1-buildings.

[Graeme]

Also I never said a non BS5839-1 system had to be removed - in fact the opposite!

Indeed in a risk assessment a system that did comply with BS5839 could require alteration/replacement if it was unsuitable for the risks!

Lets be clear- as far as the law is concerned:

1)Does your system (of whatever type, BS5839, CP1019, none of the above) provide adequate means of fire warning & detection to protect the relevant persons from the risks on site?

2)Does the system have a back up power supply?


If you answer yes to (1) & (2) then you are OK

Do you mean by this:

That the health and safety regulation 1996 is looking after fire condition only, if YES what about if the sounder and zone circuits are cut off, the system would be decapitated from the power supply with NO warning and that is the case of the school I am talking about.

If you answer no to (2) the whole system must be replaced

Could we just add a standby batteries instead of replacing the system?

not if it's 240v.

all the bells would have to be changed to 24 v

[kurnal]

Presumably if a mains system could it be run from a UPS or provided with a battery/ inverter back up supply? Or do these AC bells require a perfect 50Hz?

Personally I would not support such modifications to a system that is so old. To start to make significant modifications to a system that is 40-50 years old gives you ownership of the work that you do and of the system- and why risk your reputation to support a system that is not fit for pupose and hasn't been for over 10 years?

Unless there are  very special reasons- eg to temporarily make the system a little more compliant in a heritage building whilst awaiting a lottery grant for example- it wants replacing.

Most of these systems are in government buildings  - they would have made everybody else upgrade them years ago. And typical of these buildings would be inner rooms and dead end unprotected corridors - if you look for these you will probably find there is a need for AFD as well.

[Wiz]

i have just wrote that on my sheets in the past but i,m informed that you have to list them every service.

Graeme, I'm assuming your reply relates to the possibility of simply highlighting previous advised deficiencies that have not been dealt with. If so, whilst not suggesting the advice might be wrong, who informed you that you had to list them every service, and why?

If your reply relates to something else, please ignore.

[Wiz]

Well, he listed the parts that the system comprises of and doesn't mention any battery, so that seemed clear enough to me and consistent with the old systems I have seen in schools myself.  Perhaps for the avoidance of any further doubt Benzerari can confirm that I have understood him correctly?

Yes the fire alarm system in that school have standby batteries

Sorry then Wiz, it seems you were correct and that I am guilty of making a wrong assumption.

No need for sorry Chris. However, Matron will be scheduling an appointment for you to attend some of the 'music and movement' classes on Wednesday afternoons to try and take your mind off the Signs and Signals Regulations of which you have become obsessed with lately. You'll be in good company, because Professor K and myself are regular attendees of the class. Our problems are different but no less obsessive!