Author Topic: Radio alarm systems for life safety- response to low battery warning  (Read 23461 times)

Offline kurnal

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A care home has a radio linked addressable system with lithium batteries. There is a low battery warning alarm for each device which gives early warning of batteries needing replacement and then ultimately a battery failure alert.   The system also has 3 monthly maintenance visits and weekly testing all logged in accordance with BS5839.

For a decade the practice at the home has been to wait until 8 devices are in low battery alarm before calling in the engineers.
The home has recently been served with an enforcement notice " to instigate a proper system of maintenance for the fire detectors". Whilst not explicit in the notice the fire officer advised the manager that they should call out the engineer as soon as a single device goes into low battery warning.  

This would increase service costs eight fold. During the last  decade no device has ever changed to battery failure before being attended to.

Any opinions please?

Graeme

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Radio alarm systems for life safety- response to low battery warning
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2008, 05:13:36 PM »
usually when a device goes into battery fault in the 4.5-5 years of service then all will be changed.

found out not to leave them in fault especially not until 8 flag up because i have found the batteries can leak into the unit which can result in having to replace the unit.

Offline Wiz

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Radio alarm systems for life safety- response to low battery warning
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2008, 05:32:13 PM »
This is the typical problem with battery operated equipment. If you replace all batteries as soon as as one shows low battery warning, it could well be that the others might have had a year or two life left in them. You can always get a rogue battery in a batch.

Conversely you might even find that the battery voltage warning detection point on one device is set 0.5v above the others so that one will detect first even though the other batteries are as good (or bad) as the one with the warning.

Despite Graeme's warning that to ignore low battery warnings might result in the batteries leaking, I feel that a bit of leeway needs to be given in these circumstances. the leeway should be based on the manufacturers recommendations. If the manufacturer states that the batteries will last, say, at least 3 months after the low battery warning is given then this would be a reasonable benchmark to calculate when they have to replaced. Although, in the circumstances described by Prof. Kurnal he doesn't categorically state what the period might be before replacement. he says it is when 8 units are in low battery warning. If this means the first one has been in low battery for 12 months before the 8th one indicates, then I feel that this is pushing lady luck a bit!

Of course the fire officer advised that an engineer be called to replace batteries as soon as a low battery warning is detected. The fire officer probably knows nothing about wireless alarms, even less about batteries and, most importantly, he is not paying for the cost of calling out an engineer every time a low battery warning is given. Fortunately, he was 'not explicit' in his recommendations so I would suggest that ' a proper system of maintenance for fire detectors' should be based on the recommendations of the actual equipment's manufacturer.

Offline kurnal

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Radio alarm systems for life safety- response to low battery warning
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2008, 06:06:07 PM »
Thanks Wiz and Graeme. Fact is I dont know the full details just yet as I havn't visited - its a long way away. I was told that all faults are cleared at the quarterly service visit but dont know make of system or what other regimes may be in place. On radio systems I have come across in the past ( some time ago pre lithium batteries) despite regular changes we regularly had to replace a sizeable number of batteries in the interim- in one unheated building I remember seeing over 100 low battery warnings on a frosty morning most of which dissapeared as the temperature rose.  

The client says they are paying a lot for fire alarm maintenance and for fire consultancy services at the moment, and were rather upset to receive a notice!

Is there any standard replacement period in the industry these days with lithium batteries and is there an average MTBF figure that you are aware of?

Clevelandfire

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Radio alarm systems for life safety- response to low battery warning
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2008, 06:52:37 PM »
Quote from: Wiz
The fire officer probably knows nothing about wireless alarms, even less about batteries and, most importantly, he is not paying for the cost of calling out an engineer every time a low battery warning is given. Fortunately, he was 'not explicit' in his recommendations so I would suggest that ' a proper system of maintenance for fire detectors' should be based on the recommendations of the actual equipment's manufacturer.
Well actually do you know what ? I think you will probably find the Fire Officer DOES know ' a little ' about wireless alarms and their trappings actually owing to the fact s/he hasn't been explicit in the notice issued.

I think the fire officer is right in this instance. it isn't acceptable to wait for all devices to get low battery warnings before action is taken.

It is up to the responsible person, is it not, to come back to the fire officer and say "The manufacturer recommends the battery is replaced at a maximum of three months after the low battery warning is displayed would you be happy if I waited that long to see if any other low batter warning lights show so I can replace them at the sametime Mr Fire Officer?"

I thought thats why the Government brought out that magical piece of legislation called the Regulatory Refiorm (Fire Safety) Order 2005 so that the punters had choices how to comply? Wasn't it because the Fire Precautions Act 1971 was just too prescriptive and everyone really hated it so much.

Its always the 'bad old nasty jack booted non understanding un sympathetic fire officer costing us money again' scenario isn't it. Nothing is mentioned of this ficticious figure after a fire where the responsible person has lost his or her business or worse still has put someone at serious risk.

So if the maintenance costs are getting that prohibitive why does the RP not cut their losses and look at alternatives ?

Can I make a sensible suggestion please? Be reasonable with the fire officer and they will be reasonable with you. How on earth can they know how much each and every fire alarm contractor charges for maintenance?.
Communicate with the fire officer "Mr Fire Officer the costs of maintenance are too steep to do what you suggest what are my oiptions? Can you give me further advice?" Don't make unhelpful comments you will find they are more than willing to help so long as it makes the premises safer and compliant.

Offline Wiz

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Radio alarm systems for life safety- response to low battery warning
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2008, 09:19:05 AM »
Quote from: Clevelandfire
Quote from: Wiz
The fire officer probably knows nothing about wireless alarms, even less about batteries and, most importantly, he is not paying for the cost of calling out an engineer every time a low battery warning is given. Fortunately, he was 'not explicit' in his recommendations so I would suggest that ' a proper system of maintenance for fire detectors' should be based on the recommendations of the actual equipment's manufacturer.
Well actually do you know what ? I think you will probably find the Fire Officer DOES know ' a little ' about wireless alarms and their trappings actually owing to the fact s/he hasn't been explicit in the notice issued.

I think the fire officer is right in this instance. it isn't acceptable to wait for all devices to get low battery warnings before action is taken.

It is up to the responsible person, is it not, to come back to the fire officer and say "The manufacturer recommends the battery is replaced at a maximum of three months after the low battery warning is displayed would you be happy if I waited that long to see if any other low batter warning lights show so I can replace them at the sametime Mr Fire Officer?"

I thought thats why the Government brought out that magical piece of legislation called the Regulatory Refiorm (Fire Safety) Order 2005 so that the punters had choices how to comply? Wasn't it because the Fire Precautions Act 1971 was just too prescriptive and everyone really hated it so much.

Its always the 'bad old nasty jack booted non understanding un sympathetic fire officer costing us money again' scenario isn't it. Nothing is mentioned of this ficticious figure after a fire where the responsible person has lost his or her business or worse still has put someone at serious risk.

So if the maintenance costs are getting that prohibitive why does the RP not cut their losses and look at alternatives ?

Can I make a sensible suggestion please? Be reasonable with the fire officer and they will be reasonable with you. How on earth can they know how much each and every fire alarm contractor charges for maintenance?.
Communicate with the fire officer "Mr Fire Officer the costs of maintenance are too steep to do what you suggest what are my oiptions? Can you give me further advice?" Don't make unhelpful comments you will find they are more than willing to help so long as it makes the premises safer and compliant.
Clevelandfire says that because the fire officer knows, at least 'a little' about wireless fire alarm systems and their batteries, that is why the enforcement notice issued is vague. I believe it is vague precisely because he doesn't know enough.

The question, for me, is if the enforcement notice was issued before the guy was given an opportunity to prove  that his method of dealing with the low-battery warnings was acceptable practice by obtaining supporting evidence from 'expert' sources.

Obviously, the fire officer doesn't know the maintenance costs of every fire alarm company in his region (I don't even think it would be important to know this) but he should understand that, say, a number of seperate visits to change batteries would be more expensive than one every few weeks.

Whilst not saying it is applicable in this case (none of us have all the facts), the 'bad old nasty jack booted non understanding un sympathetic fire officer' must exist because so many people have met him.

Of course, Mr Fire Officer is a brave old soul, along with the Mr Policeman, Ms Nurse, Mrs Sailor, Mr Soldier, Miss RAF Pilot, Mr Coastguard, Ms Lifeboatman etc etc.

Of course Mr Fire Officer does an important job that helps to make the world go around smoothly. But so does, well, virtually everybody, actually.

The business owners problems are just as vaild as anyone else's.

I agree that working together will get the most satisfactory result but anybody with any power has to be sure to use it wisely (I'm not saying that isn't so in this particular case because I don't know all the facts or, of course, of fire officers in particular - it's just a general observation)

Offline Wiz

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Radio alarm systems for life safety- response to low battery warning
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2008, 09:26:54 AM »
Quote from: kurnal
Thanks Wiz and Graeme. Fact is I dont know the full details just yet as I havn't visited - its a long way away. I was told that all faults are cleared at the quarterly service visit but dont know make of system or what other regimes may be in place. On radio systems I have come across in the past ( some time ago pre lithium batteries) despite regular changes we regularly had to replace a sizeable number of batteries in the interim- in one unheated building I remember seeing over 100 low battery warnings on a frosty morning most of which dissapeared as the temperature rose.  

The client says they are paying a lot for fire alarm maintenance and for fire consultancy services at the moment, and were rather upset to receive a notice!

Is there any standard replacement period in the industry these days with lithium batteries and is there an average MTBF figure that you are aware of?
EMS appear to confirm that their batteries will continue to power the device for at least 30 days after the low battery warning initiates. Obviously, a customer would have to have a very good management system in place to record when warnings first operated, to ensure they didn't exceed this limit!

Offline David Rooney

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Radio alarm systems for life safety- response to low battery warning
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2008, 10:09:39 AM »
I don't imagine this is an EMS system as they don't specifically indicate a low battery warning, the panel simply shows "fault" and you have to interrogate the log to find out what's what.

... and this is a complicated affair when a fault is indicated and i doubt the customer would be able to work through the menus.

So who is saying it is a low battery warning??

More than likely it is "Batt A Fail" or intermittent signal problems.

We have had a few sites where we have had devices fail like dominoes, even after a complete battery change. In the end EMS replaced all the lithium battery packs and sent there own engineers to do the work.... they do occassionaly get a dodgy batch of batteries.....!

I would ask the service company to print off the event log so you can see exactly what the problems are.... if you're not sure what it means send it to EMS (assuming its theirs!) or send it to me.

Also, if the devices work the same as an EMS, then all the devices have two sets of batteries providing independent power to each device. Therefore a low battery warning doesn't mean the device is about to fail, it could carry on working for years on the one good set of batteries.
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Offline Wiz

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Radio alarm systems for life safety- response to low battery warning
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2008, 11:38:51 AM »
The information was ascertained from information on the EMS website. I accept that it doesn't explain exactly what warning you get, or if you have to negotiate difficult menus on the control panel but the information is that the batteries will last 30 days after the low battery fault warning.

Obviously, David Rooney (an engineer) has hands-on knowledge and practical experience of the EMS equipment and how it operates in 'real life' and his comments should be taken into account.

The double-battery pack scenario is quite an interesting point. Is the second pack installed to give 'years' of continued operation? if so, could it not be argued that you certainly don't need to rush to replace the pack that is giving a fault warning?

I have my own opinions on the two battery scenario based on my involvement as a technical consultant for a local authority that created a budget in the late 1970's / early 1980's to try to develop a wireless fire detection and alarm system. As far as we were all concerned there was absolutely no-one manufacturing such a system (apart from non-monitored equipment for connection to wireless intruder alarm systems). The council found a guy called David Levy (who later formed RAFT Radio And Fire Technology) and paid him to build the equipment to a then, unknown, specification since there was nothing in BS5839 at that time that mentioned wireless systems. We involved the local fire brigade in the development of the equipment and they insisted that as much of the existing BS5839 wired-system recommendations as possible be incorporated in the equipment designs. One of these was two battery packs to 'mimic' the 'mains' and 'battery' power sources of a wired system. Over a three year period 4 wireless fire alarm systems were installed in 4 very different styles of property and which threw up a whole 'RAFT' of problems - But that's a long story for another time!

Graeme

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Radio alarm systems for life safety- response to low battery warning
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2008, 12:18:43 PM »
I have two sites recently that started giving faults. The first site was at the 4 year mark so only that device had a battery change,however another device flagged up fault within a couple of weeks so i replaced them all so the customer was not going to get anymore call outs.

The second site was in 4.5 years of service and three devices called in fault. The fault was not reponded to that day but a few days after and i foound that the batteries had leaked causing two detectors having to be replaced.

so this is why i personally am very wary of leaving any device in fault for any length of time.

Offline Wiz

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Radio alarm systems for life safety- response to low battery warning
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2008, 12:32:04 PM »
Quote from: Graeme
I have two sites recently that started giving faults. The first site was at the 4 year mark so only that device had a battery change,however another device flagged up fault within a couple of weeks so i replaced them all so the customer was not going to get anymore call outs.

The second site was in 4.5 years of service and three devices called in fault. The fault was not reponded to that day but a few days after and i foound that the batteries had leaked causing two detectors having to be replaced.

so this is why i personally am very wary of leaving any device in fault for any length of time.
Graeme, out of interest, do you think the low warning is given because the batteries have started to leak or that they start to leak after the low warning point is reached?

Midland Retty

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Radio alarm systems for life safety- response to low battery warning
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2008, 05:23:48 PM »
Wiz

Responsible persons will always have problems, but they shouldnt just sit there and expect people to wipe their backsides for them.

Enforcement notices issued by several fire authorities tend to be very woolly these days to allow scope for the Responsible Person to seek various ways in complying with it. In other words there is no (or atleast very little) prescription.

This is in stark contrast to the good old days of the Fire Cert and Workplace Regs. The RRO apparently allows for the flexibility that our friends in the business world wanted. You have got to understand the fire officer isn't there to hold people's hands now. You don't want guide hugging enforcers yet you still want to be told what to do in order to comply. Its very much a balancing act and whilst fire authorities don't always get that right the client kurnal talks of has got the option to communicate and convey any problems they might have.

Your comments regarding "brave old fire officer" took out of context of what the poster was trying to say. Most businesses never recover from fire was the sentiment I believe, not "we firemen are heroes cos we save peoples lives when the RP cocks up" as you seem to suggest.

You definately can not leave it until all the devices are showing fault or low battery warning to do something about it. I have known leakages to occur on some older systems. I would accept certain procedures, such as following manufacturers guidance for example to see how long the batteries would last and risk assessing it from there. There may be other acceptable solutions or measures too. Thats why these forums were started no doubt so that people could bounce around ideas.
 
You make comment about the fire officer demanding an engineer be called out to replace the battery. Yes, because unfortunately if anything were to happen that night and as a result the device didn't work and people were put at risk or worse it you can imagine the headlines the next day.

As Clevelandfire points out, if the maintenance costs involved in providing adequate early warning of fire are too prohibitive review your fire risk assessment, and decide if an alternative system or procedures are required. If the RP isn't competent to do this the RRO is quite clear in stating that s/he should employ someone who is to assist them.

Offline David Rooney

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Radio alarm systems for life safety- response to low battery warning
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2008, 06:02:55 PM »
Quote from: Wiz
Obviously, David Rooney (an engineer) has hands-on knowledge and practical experience of the EMS equipment and how it operates in 'real life' and his comments should be taken into account.
Errr Director I'll have you know ... !   :P  ... but know what you mean......

Interesting stuff about the conception of RAFT MR Wiz...  all I was getting at is that we don't know that it is an EMS system for sure....

Regards whethere you choose to change batteries when they flag a warning up, (getting back to EMS) they will not accept a device going back under warranty if a battery has leaked and you haven't changed it within 30 days of it flagging up.... they also want the log to prove it.....
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Offline Wiz

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Radio alarm systems for life safety- response to low battery warning
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2008, 06:12:29 PM »
Quote from: Midland Retty
Wiz

Responsible persons will always have problems, but they shouldnt just sit there and expect people to wipe their backsides for them.

Enforcement notices issued by several fire authorities tend to be very woolly these days to allow scope for the Responsible Person to seek various ways in complying with it. In other words there is no (or atleast very little) prescription.

This is in stark contrast to the good old days of the Fire Cert and Workplace Regs. The RRO apparently allows for the flexibility that our friends in the business world wanted. You have got to understand the fire officer isn't there to hold people's hands now. You don't want guide hugging enforcers yet you still want to be told what to do in order to comply. Its very much a balancing act and whilst fire authorities don't always get that right the client kurnal talks of has got the option to communicate and convey any problems they might have.

Your comments regarding "brave old fire officer" took out of context of what the poster was trying to say. Most businesses never recover from fire was the sentiment I believe, not "we firemen are heroes cos we save peoples lives when the RP cocks up" as you seem to suggest.

You definately can not leave it until all the devices are showing fault or low battery warning to do something about it. I have known leakages to occur on some older systems. I would accept certain procedures, such as following manufacturers guidance for example to see how long the batteries would last and risk assessing it from there. There may be other acceptable solutions or measures too. Thats why these forums were started no doubt so that people could bounce around ideas.
 
You make comment about the fire officer demanding an engineer be called out to replace the battery. Yes, because unfortunately if anything were to happen that night and as a result the device didn't work and people were put at risk or worse it you can imagine the headlines the next day.

As Clevelandfire points out, if the maintenance costs involved in providing adequate early warning of fire are too prohibitive review your fire risk assessment, and decide if an alternative system or procedures are required. If the RP isn't competent to do this the RRO is quite clear in stating that s/he should employ someone who is to assist them.
I understand everything that you have said. But is it fair for the fire officer to issue the 'woolly' enforcement notice ''to instigate a proper system of maintenance for the fire detectors" in respect of something that the owner had been doing for a decade (apparantly without a problem) and may, in fact, have been an entirely suitable method of dealing with the problem? Where is the flexibility, that your friends in the business world wanted, in that?

Offline Wiz

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Radio alarm systems for life safety- response to low battery warning
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2008, 06:17:15 PM »
Quote from: David Rooney
Quote from: Wiz
Obviously, David Rooney (an engineer) has hands-on knowledge and practical experience of the EMS equipment and how it operates in 'real life' and his comments should be taken into account.
Errr Director I'll have you know ... !   :P  ... but know what you mean......
I should maybe have said 'with hands-on engineering knowledge and experience etc.' - Glad you understood, Mr Director!