Author Topic: Staff handsets for fire alrm system  (Read 28924 times)

Offline Wiz

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Staff handsets for fire alrm system
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2008, 09:14:05 AM »
Quote from: colin todd
.... Contrary to what is suggested many f&RS actually adovocate a staff alarm nowadays by the way.......
Interesting comment Mr T.. In my experience it is the customer who requests the staff alarm and after some negotiation the F&RS grudgingly agree to it!

Thereafter follows various rounds of negotiation as to how long a delay will be allowed before a full evacuation signal is initiated.

The final agreement normally involves the premises having to employ ex-olympic sprinters to assess the cause of the alarm condition before the delay expires!  :)

Offline GregC

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« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2008, 11:18:35 AM »
Quote from: tonyfog
Gents,

I've been asked to Explain the circumstances in which a staff alarm might be considered and the arrangements that you would incorporate within a staff alarm facility to ensure an adequate degree of safety for occupants of a multi-storey office building
I can see lots of discussion about staff alarms but the answer to the original query is in Bs5839 Pt1 2002 section 19.2.2 page 40 as Colin says earlier, if you dont have a copy PM me and I will see how I can help.

Offline David Rooney

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Staff handsets for fire alrm system
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2008, 11:20:53 AM »
I know I've asked this before but I would still like it clarified.....

If the RP has done a risk assessment and concluded (in this case) a staff alarm is acceptable, on what grounds can the F&RS object??

Is it the case that if they say "No" the RP has to go to court to justify his decision if he feels that strongly... or does he wait for an enforcement notice and then go to court??

What is the procedure..??
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Offline Wiz

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« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2008, 12:08:33 PM »
Quote from: GregC
Quote from: tonyfog
Gents,

I've been asked to Explain the circumstances in which a staff alarm might be considered and the arrangements that you would incorporate within a staff alarm facility to ensure an adequate degree of safety for occupants of a multi-storey office building
I can see lots of discussion about staff alarms but the answer to the original query is in Bs5839 Pt1 2002 section 19.2.2 page 40 as Colin says earlier, if you dont have a copy PM me and I will see how I can help.
GregC, I hope you are not considering making and distributing copies of a copyright document? :)

Offline Wiz

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« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2008, 12:14:25 PM »
Quote from: David Rooney
I know I've asked this before but I would still like it clarified.....

If the RP has done a risk assessment and concluded (in this case) a staff alarm is acceptable, on what grounds can the F&RS object??

Is it the case that if they say "No" the RP has to go to court to justify his decision if he feels that strongly... or does he wait for an enforcement notice and then go to court??

What is the procedure..??
David,
As far as I understand the process, when the F&RS object to his precautions, if he is not prepared to modify them then the F&RS might issue an enforcement notice. In this case he gets the opportunity in court to convince the judge that his precautions are reasonable.

Offline Allen Higginson

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« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2008, 12:53:40 PM »
Quote from: Wiz
Quote from: colin todd
.... Contrary to what is suggested many f&RS actually adovocate a staff alarm nowadays by the way.......
The final agreement normally involves the premises having to employ ex-olympic sprinters to assess the cause of the alarm condition before the delay expires!  :)
I thought that there was a new ammendment in reference to search distances that those searching must be assessed to be competant at completing 60m in no more than 7 seconds?

Offline Allen Higginson

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« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2008, 12:57:54 PM »
Although Staff Alarms are generally not acceptable in relation to MCP's.

You still visiting Benedicts Colin?

Chris Houston

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Staff handsets for fire alrm system
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2008, 01:02:52 PM »
Quote from: colin todd
UMMMMMMMMM no not really Christopher. Staff alarm is a defined term. See BS 5839-1
OK.  If the exam is specific to fire alarms or to BS 5839, then fair enough.  But, like I said, if someone asked me that question without referring to fire alarms or BS 5839 then I would ask them to clarify what they are talking about.

Offline GregC

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« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2008, 01:51:36 PM »
Quote from: Wiz
Quote from: GregC
Quote from: tonyfog
Gents,

I've been asked to Explain the circumstances in which a staff alarm might be considered and the arrangements that you would incorporate within a staff alarm facility to ensure an adequate degree of safety for occupants of a multi-storey office building
I can see lots of discussion about staff alarms but the answer to the original query is in Bs5839 Pt1 2002 section 19.2.2 page 40 as Colin says earlier, if you dont have a copy PM me and I will see how I can help.
GregC, I hope you are not considering making and distributing copies of a copyright document? :)
Of course not but my interpritation of said document isnt copyright infringement is it ?


(I remember a former employer once having a fellow engineer visit a library and copy the 1988 standards with chalk and a blackboard!!)

Offline Wiz

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« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2008, 01:57:22 PM »
Quote from: Wiz
Quote from: GregC
GregC, I hope you are not considering making and distributing copies of a copyright document? :)
Of course not but my interpritation of said document isnt copyright infringement is it ?
Of course not. I really didn't think you would take the easy option, even if illegal !
Quote from: GregC
(I remember a former employer once having a fellow engineer visit a library and copy the 1988 standards with chalk and a blackboard!!)
I don't know who/what you can be refering to. Anyway, what was wrong with the library's photocopier? ;)

Offline GregC

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« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2008, 02:16:49 PM »
Quote from: Wiz
Anyway, what was wrong with the library's photocopier? ;)
He wouldnt pay 2p per page.............

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2008, 08:19:18 PM »
Staff alarms are becoming virtually normal practice in very large installations with significant numbers of smoke detectors. They may be entirely appropriate in some premises but not in others. Fire and rescue services love the use of staff alarms in relation to summoning of the FRS. One (happily recently retired) SFSO even threatened to use the powers of enforcment to require res care establishments in the county (ies) to investigate fire alarm signals at all times before summoning the FRS, including at night when there were few staff on duty. I did offer to go chat to the magistrates about it, as it would be an interesting diversion for them from fining unsuspecting motorists for speeding on the highway, but I  still await the carrying out of the threat with bated breath.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2008, 08:24:32 PM »
Quote from: Buzzard905
Although Staff Alarms are generally not acceptable in relation to MCP's.

You still visiting Benedicts Colin?
Always!!!  At my age, its the only place I can still have a dance with under 30s. We are throwing a large party next Sunday for the 25th anniversary of the practice, and will be having the Untouchables from NI to provide the entertainment.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Allen Higginson

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« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2008, 08:58:49 PM »
Quote from: colin todd
Quote from: Buzzard905
Although Staff Alarms are generally not acceptable in relation to MCP's.

You still visiting Benedicts Colin?
Always!!!  At my age, its the only place I can still have a dance with under 30s. We are throwing a large party next Sunday for the 25th anniversary of the practice, and will be having the Untouchables from NI to provide the entertainment.
Excellent - I'll buy you you're anniversary drink next time you're in Belfast.

Offline Wiz

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« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2008, 09:32:12 AM »
Quote from: colin todd
Staff alarms are becoming virtually normal practice in very large installations with significant numbers of smoke detectors. They may be entirely appropriate in some premises but not in others. Fire and rescue services love the use of staff alarms in relation to summoning of the FRS. One (happily recently retired) SFSO even threatened to use the powers of enforcment to require res care establishments in the county (ies) to investigate fire alarm signals at all times before summoning the FRS, including at night when there were few staff on duty. I did offer to go chat to the magistrates about it, as it would be an interesting diversion for them from fining unsuspecting motorists for speeding on the highway, but I  still await the carrying out of the threat with bated breath.
One assumes the SFSO was trying to reduce the number of attendances to unwanted alarms. Many years ago a fire officer explained to me that he loved unwanted alarms because the Government's calculation of the need for number of appliances and men at any fire station was based on the number of times that station was 'called out' and not what type of incidents they were 'called out' for.

Therefore 'unwanted alarms' kept the call out level up and the Government couldn't reduce the staffing level of that fire station. He further explained that his attitude was shared by most full-time firemen, but not by retained firemen since they found unwanted alarms a waste of their time. Full time personnel found them an interesting diversion in an otherwise quiet shift!

I wonder if anyone can advise what the current thinking, at various levels of the F&RS', is regarding the 'benefits' to the FRS of attendance to unwanted alarms?