Local sounders in hotel rooms....

[David Rooney]

A large plush hotel in London known to one or two of the members for sure.....

Part of the strategy is that a single detector in a room going into fire will start a 90 second "acknowledgement" timer (followed by a five minute search timer).

Simultaneously sounders operate in the room of origin only as soon as the detector activates.

Basically if either timer runs out or second detector/call point activates then a full evac alarm is provided by a voice alarm system throughout (including the bedrooms.)

It appears that the sounders in the rooms are basic 24volt switched by relays but they are not monitored for any fault conditions.

Forgetting the two stage timer and possible excessive search period.......Is the fact the bedroom sounders are not monitored a variation or not ??

[Richr]

if the sounder in the room didnt activate for 6 mins 30 secs would the risk assessment jusify that?

[David Rooney]

The assessment is likely to say the hotel is manned 24/7 and therefore a fire condition is likely to be confirmed long before this period is up...

[Richr]

if initial sounders are not required in the rooms then why would they be installed in the first place. if the alarm circuit is unmonitored the system could not comply with 5839 and would be imposible to certificate.

Surely?

[Galeon]

The VA system should cater for this totally , thats if its a Va and not PA , sounds like a modified half breed of a part1 and part 6 combined.

[kurnal]

The principle of the cause and effect sounds reasonable, but how it has been achieved sounds like a lash up.

As you know Dave using modern systems, delay blocks and sectors configuring this type of cause and effect is fairly straightforward.  ( for you not for me- I still only drive the things)

As it is set up I would say that its a variation and would be wondering what other issues may lurk within. 

[messy]

I wonder whether I know of this Hotel?

The LFB (well a particular IO) had an issue with a very large Hotel with regards to time delay procedures. The issue revolved around the fact that whilst Hotel staff would be made aware of the AFD's actuation, the relevant person (customer) within the room/suite would not being alerted to a fire signal immediately during the search period. If I recall correctly. this was more of an issue in suites where there was a possibility of persons being/sleeping in rooms other than the room of origin.

The IO determined that this system was unsuitable and requested a local sounder in each room which would actuate (in the room/suite of origin) immediately, thereby protecting the relevant person(s). The last I heard was the Hotel were unsure whether this would be possible using their currently installed system and were investigating the most cost effective way of installing the sounders.

This might (or might not) account for why such as system has been installed and installed in a non standard way.

[David Rooney]

the system is up for refurbishment hence I don't want to broadcast the name... but suffice to say the system is around 15 years old now the suites do generally have a sounder (unmonitored) in each room... this may well have been an afterthought installed after the original FD&A system was installed.

The voice alarm is a monitored system but obviously not to modern day spec.

I just don't understand why these sounders aren't monitored, and if there is actually any reason why they should be if the VA system is the "primary" alarm...?

[Wiz]

David, surely it is obviously a Variation to BS5839 Part 1 2002 + A2 2008.

That something might have been agreed as suitable currently or previously, doesn't make it exempt from being highlighted as a Variation to the current Code of Practice.

[David Rooney]

I think it depends on what angle you are coming from Wiz....

If the PA system is accepted as the means of warning with its delays etc etc meaning the person in the room of origin may not get warned for upto 6.5 minutes then the local alarm doesn't really come into it and could be a bicycle bell.... therefore if its not needed, its not a variation.

But if the local alarm is required to wake the person in the room instantly then surely it should be monitored and as it's not, should be a variation?

I suppose the other question then is in any hotel where a delay strategy is employed, is it acceptable to delay the sounders in the room of origin??

[Big_Fella]

We maintain and have for many many years, some very well known barnds of large national hotels, and their policy is to delay the sounders for upto 5 minutes on activation on 1 detector (2nd detector or MCP triggers, then full alarm).  No alarm is given in the room of origin until the delay timer has expired.

These hotel chains are in excess of 200+ hotels national each.

I think it appears to be common in hotels this kind of delay.

Although, all the hotels are worried about in these instances is lost revenue from unwanted evacuation.

[Allen Higginson]

If they are additional/secondary then surely they don't come under the original specification if they weren't included in it (as Dave says,could be bicycle bells or party blowers on compressors!?)

[Wiz]

I think it depends on what angle you are coming from Wiz....

If the PA system is accepted as the means of warning with its delays etc etc meaning the person in the room of origin may not get warned for upto 6.5 minutes then the local alarm doesn't really come into it and could be a bicycle bell.... therefore if its not needed, its not a variation.

......

David,

The angle I am coming from is that you are reporting on the system in respect of current BS recommendations. If the angle is different then, obviously, my comments might be different!

Firstly, If the sounder is not needed why was it ever installed? I can't believe a hotel chain spent good money installing sounders that they didn't need!

But is it your problem anyway?

You appear to be spending your time trying to justify being able to ignore these sounders so they don't have to be noted as a variation. Why are you doing this?

It is obvious that you haven't been shown any documentation proving that this variation has previously been highlighted and  has been approved by the relevant persons. If this existed you probably wouldn't be asking the question.

The point I was trying to make is that the sounders obviously form part of the fire alarm warning system and as such if they don't comply they should be highlighted as a variation.

As an analogy, if, for example, I found an area covered by two smoke detectors and one of these detectors was, say, incorrectly wired so that it wasn't monitored as per the recommendations but by calculation I worked out that one 'good' detector was actually sufficient to cover the whole area, I would still have to highlight the Variation of the non-monitored detector in my report, wouldn't I?

Your problem is the same. The sounders are not monitored to BS. The question for you surely isn't whether they are needed or not; They are installed as part of the fire warning system and they don't comply to current B.S.

In my opinion you should highlight them as a Variation and then let the relevant persons assess the risk and decide if not having them monitored is acceptable or not.

[Allen Higginson]

Just slightly off topic but what about secondary sounders in the industrial sector say,where they are mains operated and not monitored?They are part of the fire alarm strategy for the building due to excessive noise but are not monitored.They standard makes reference to these saying that they should be linked to a contactor and only operate when the machinery/process is in operation but they are not monitored.

[Wiz]

Buzz, your point is a good one and not really that far off topic, but I don't think it applies in this case.

From David's explanation, it seems to me that these sounders were almost certainly installed because of the delay before voice evac. and not because they are needed to re-inforce any other audible warning.

David's explanation states that they operate in the room of origin only. Therefore they are there to provide the room occupant with an early warning (i.e not having to wait for the voice evac. to operate). Because of this they are an integral part of the fire alarm warning system and are surely subject to all the standard BS recommendations.