Author Topic: Wedging open fire doors  (Read 40846 times)

Offline Mushy

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Re: Wedging open fire doors
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2010, 12:41:22 PM »
However if the Fire Authority have already served an enforcement notice in respect of your wedging doors open then to breach the requirements of the notice is an offence in itself.

An enforcement notice for door wedges? What sort of time-frame are we looking at for that notice? ;)

just had one with that included...as part of a bigger package!

Offline Tom W

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Re: Wedging open fire doors
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2010, 02:06:29 PM »
Ive seen a few actually!

Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: Wedging open fire doors
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2010, 12:20:39 AM »
Mad world.

Offline kurnal

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Re: Wedging open fire doors
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2010, 08:58:12 AM »
Yes Civvy I agree to a point. Informal action is the obvious course of action to take for any hazard such as a wedge that can be dealt with in an instant.

But getting the gaffer to remove the wedge does not deal with the underlying problem. Sometimes the big guns have to come out otherwise the wedge will be back the minute you walk out the door.

Was in a 32 flat  extra care(less) sheltered housing complex before Christmas. One Resident had mental health problems and was a chain smoker, the warden said that the social worker insisted that this persons flat door must be wedged open all the time as he felt closed in and threatened otherwise. Other residents not too impressed but they dont have a say over the Authorities. "Uman Rights Act and Elf and Safety you know"

A little further along the same flats corridor the laundry door was wedged open and had a sign stuck on it reading as follows "Please do not remove the wedge from this door. It is a heavy door and must be kept open all the time for cleaning purposes  (signed scheme manager)"

It would be a heavy door. Its a 1 hour fire door installed because the BCO insisted that the ancillary accommodation be separated from the sleeping accommodation to a one hour standard. So that was a big success too.


Offline nearlythere

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Re: Wedging open fire doors
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2010, 09:39:12 AM »

the warden said that the social worker insisted that this persons flat door must be wedged open all the time as he felt closed in and threatened otherwise.
 
So the social worker could be prosecuted as she/he took control of the matter of wedging the door open?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline kurnal

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Re: Wedging open fire doors
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2010, 11:30:53 AM »
No. Cant be done. You have no history or evidence chain as the FSO just grumbles and pockets the wedges every time he visits.

Midland Retty

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Re: Wedging open fire doors
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2010, 12:22:26 PM »
No. Cant be done. You have no history or evidence chain as the FSO just grumbles and pockets the wedges every time he visits.

Slightly disagree there.

The fact is if anything were to occur (for instance the chain smoking patient set fire to his / her bedding - the fire spreads because the door was propped open - people are put at risk ) then the resulting investigation would look at all aggrivating factors. This could include what affect the social worker had.

There's nothing stopping the Fire Authority from obtaining witness statements to say that the social worker asked for the door to be wedged or interviewing the social worker.

Clearly the responsible person should have acted on the situation and looked at installing hold open devices and the like, but that aside, this demonstrates a common problem when inspectors from other authorities insist or compell the RP to do X,Y or Z (sometimes using the bluff and pursuasion act) which unfortunately conflicts with, or places the RP in contravention of fire safety legislation.

The RP is sometimes left being pushed from pillar to post wondering what they should have done differently.

Back to propping open doors - I do agree that 9 times out of 10 removing the wedge is treating the symptom and not the cause.

In Kurnals example wedges are definately unacceptable. But go back to my small low risk office where the staff are sweltering in the heat during the summer months and prop their door open to get a bit of ventilation. So long as the item propping the door was removed when the office is unattended or the fire alarm activates is there really an issue? The Answer is risk assessment!
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 12:35:24 PM by Midland Retty »

Offline kurnal

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Re: Wedging open fire doors
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2010, 12:42:20 PM »
Peoples perception of the effects of wedging doors and what they would do in a fire is so often way off the mark. Saw this once in a care home fire - the fire started in the laundry, the door was wedged because it was hot. The lady working in there had every intention of removing the wedge if the fire alarm sounded. Trouble was the fire did start whilst she was at the other end of the buidling delivering clean clothes to rooms and had forgotten to take the wedge out before she left.

Another example of misperception occurred in a Notts Pub just before Christmas. I attended a private party in the function room. One fire exit was completely obstructed as the pool table was pushed against it and set out with a buffet. I then saw the landlord lock the other door with a key. Why have you done that? I challenged him. He said he always did it to stop unwanted guests attending the private function. But dont worry the key is in my pocket and I will unlock the door if there is a fire.

Bet you wont I said. Because if a fire occurs somewhere in your pub you will go straight to the scene of the fire to investigate whats going on and forget all about the door. He opened it for me- but I bet next time he will lock it just the same.

Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Wedging open fire doors
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2010, 12:47:09 PM »
I agree - you are living in a dream world if you think people will remember to un-wedge doors etc in a fire situation. Once they've decided to leave at all their only thought will be to grab their coat, laptop & coffee on the way.

If it's a safety critical door as part of the fire precautions measures in a premises I will not accept any bluff about removing it in a fire because experience tells me that it's a load of tosh even if the person was genuine in intent as oppose to just making an excuse. I'd rather find them an acceptable way of holding the door open
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Offline FSO

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Re: Wedging open fire doors
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2010, 01:07:07 PM »
However if the Fire Authority have already served an enforcement notice in respect of your wedging doors open then to breach the requirements of the notice is an offence in itself.

An enforcement notice for door wedges? What sort of time-frame are we looking at for that notice? ;)

Well at least 28 days  ;) :D

Offline FSO

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Re: Wedging open fire doors
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2010, 01:17:40 PM »
Another example of misperception occurred in a Notts Pub just before Christmas. I attended a private party in the function room. One fire exit was completely obstructed as the pool table was pushed against it and set out with a buffet. I then saw the landlord lock the other door with a key. Why have you done that? I challenged him. He said he always did it to stop unwanted guests attending the private function. But dont worry the key is in my pocket and I will unlock the door if there is a fire.

I had a similar thing a few months ago (in a similar county ;)) when I was locked in a bar and could not find the way out. When I asked the doorman where the way out was, he said he would return with the key. 5 minutes later he let me out.

When I challanged him on it he stated it was not a fire exit (whilst standing under the maintained illuminated exit signage) and they locked the doors to stop undesriables coming in. Surely thats his job??

I raised my concerns with the local FRS the following day.

Offline afterburner

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Re: Wedging open fire doors
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2010, 03:04:54 PM »
we, the population of the UK have buried enough victims and wrung our hands at enough enquiries to know that locked fire exits are a disaster looking for a place to happen.

The only exemption from 'easily & immediately openable' (under Scottish Fire Law) is for places of lawful detention. If it ain't a Prison, Police Station, Court or Immigration Detention Centre a locked fire exit is unacceptable

Offline Tom W

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Re: Wedging open fire doors
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2010, 03:16:19 PM »
What about homes for people with dementia/metal issues? Prone to wonder about and could cause harm to themselves and others?

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Wedging open fire doors
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2010, 04:20:32 PM »
What about homes for people with dementia/metal issues? Prone to wonder about and could cause harm to themselves and others?
Do you mean the forum members?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Tom W

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Re: Wedging open fire doors
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2010, 05:02:15 PM »
haha  ;D