Kent FB wanting confirmation of fire ....

[David Rooney]

Received an email today from K F&RS - partly copied below....


Whatever happened to issuing URNs for fire systems via accredited maintenance companies?

With reference to "unless the incident can be confirmed to be an actual fire" made below, how would this work if the call goes through an ARC?

Also, would it suffice if systems were programmed only to send an alarm on operation of a call point or 2 detectors?



What’s changed?

From 2 April 2012, all calls from automatic fire alarms will be challenged by the Service’s 999 staff. During the day (6am to 6pm), unless the incident can be confirmed to be an actual fire or signs of fire, an engine will not be sent. However, for a further year (to April 2013), a fire engine will be sent to calls to automatic fire alarms received at night (6pm to 6 am), where a procedure has not been introduced to confirm a fire. This is to allow those responsible for managing premises extra time to make any required changes to their procedures.
 
We will ask sheltered accommodation to let us know if the call is a false alarm. If this is not possible then the fire service will attend. However, if you manage a sheltered housing scheme, we will expect you to investigate the cause of false alarms and take any actions necessary to reduce them in future.
 
This change will apply to all calls whether they are made from the affected building, through a call handling organisation or some other method.

[jayjay]

Local Authoritys are currently cutting back an night time staff at Sheltered Housing what are they going to do if they are not staffed?
Also what is Kents policy on residential care or nursing homes? perhaps they should read the findings of the Rosepark inquiry and what the Sheriff stated about call challenging.

I have checked with my local F&R and they state that there will be no call challenging at residential premises and that attendance will be 2 appliances during day and 3 at night time.

How can fire authorities come up with such varied response in their risk assessments.

[Wiz]

In the 'good old days' of the early Seventies, just when automatic fire detection was starting to be installed in local authority buildings where people slept, the Fire Service was overjoyed by the number of automatic detectors being put in. They said, "if the system operates, then immediately call 999, don't risk investigating the cause just call us and evacuate the building, every second counts, the first thing to do is call 999. We don't care if it turns out to be an unwanted alarm."

My, how things change. Even though it is only people's lives at stake!

I even queried the Fire Service's 'Seventies policy' of attending everything even without verification of the cause with a Station Officer and he told me, "Actually, the real reason we want to be called out is because it justifies our existance - the number of appliances (employees) required at every Fire Station is based on the number of calls we attend, and not on how many of them are real fires. We actually love 'false alarms' - keep installing those detectors!

So the cyncial attitude has always been there. It has just undergone a bit of a reversal!

[Dinnertime Dave]

Local Authoritys are currently cutting back an night time staff at Sheltered Housing what are they going to do if they are not staffed?

jayjay

I think the answer is in the sentence  - "We will ask sheltered accommodation to let us know if the call is a false alarm. If this is not possible then the fire service will attend"

Don`t disagree to principle to their policy ours is stricter than this although we don`t call challenge sheltered housing or residential care.
 

[David Rooney]

So how is it going to work when a system in a multi storey office / call centre goes off and they ring the receptionist to ask "is it a real fire" ?

[Graeme]

it won't. she will be standing outside with the rest of the employess.

[AnthonyB]

It seems to make the point of a Category P fire alarm and any property protection desire from a fire alarm system defunct - no point in littering the building with detectors and an ARC link if no-one will attend.

Either premises of this type are going to have to employ staff 24/7 just for fire watch out of hours or some bright spark will re-invent insurance brigades and have a private response to ARC links to confirm fire signals and take initial action

[David Rooney]

And there was me thinking third party accreditation and URNs were being introduced to make fire companies and end users more accountable and more responsible for the correct design and operation of their fire systems so that if a call went out you could be 99% sure it was the real thing and therefore wouldn't require such a ridiculous verification plan.....


 

[nearlythere]

And there was me thinking third party accreditation and URNs were being introduced to make fire companies and end users more accountable and more responsible for the correct design and operation of their fire systems so that if a call went out you could be 99% sure it was the real thing and therefore wouldn't require such a ridiculous verification plan.....

I have come to the conclusion that third party accreditation means very little to nothing any more.
I know of a fire extinguisher/fire alarm installation business which had an engineer who had the technical knowhow to obtain the third party accreditation and the business proudly displayed this in their website and letter heads.
Because of shady working practices the engineer left leaving nobody with any competence in fire alarm installations but the business continues to use the accreditation. Despite being the told of the situation the business remains registered.
This company has subsequently installed a fire warning system using non FR cabling and a domestic wireless system in a high risk commercial undertaking.

So much for demonstrating a commitment to service excellence.

[David Rooney]

So why can't the auditing company be held to account by "BAFE" itself ?

Who polices the police?

Out of interest how do we go about trying to get some kind of agreement as to what is a "confirmed fire" with the brigade albeit two detectors required to operate to initiate a call etc.

We have clients who are not happy their P systems are no longer going to be attended and are talking of cancelling Redcare as there is no point paying £££100s per year for very little benefit.

Presumably - due to the lack of URNs all systems are placed in the same bucket and are going to be equally ignored so we are banging our head against the wall till the men in black have had a few years to think about it?

[jokar]

and now we have FSOs advocating afd even in cat m premises and making clients spend lots of money sometimes unnecessarily and then not attending and giving the blame to the poor old managers.  No wardens on site for sheltered no one there at all in Cat P and no one there when the alarm goes off and all are standing outside waiting for the big red lorry that is not going to come.  I trust that Kent have written to all their businesses and said they want a smaller part of the business rates for the poor service that they are now providing!!

To come, volunteer firefighters and full time paid managers.