Capacity of a nightclub - advise?

[CarlyD]

Hello, I am considering buying a nightclub.
I have checked with the local fire officer and the capacity for the club is 780.

I know that it easily takes 2,000 people (floorspace wise) as it's approx 15,000 sqft.
I spoke to the brewery and they suggested that I can set the capacity limit myself??? is this true?

I want to make this club work, but with 780 it will look empty and just won't work.

Any suggestions???

Thanks in advance

CarlyD

[AnthonyB]

It's not just a matter of floorspace, but also the number of exits, their location & width. There are guides to help carry out a fire risk assessment which  amongst many other things will consider the capacity, but you would be strongly advised to seek the advice of a competent person from a consultancy (that has leisure and entertainment premises experience) or the larger brewery/leisure chains in solving this problem.

A nightclub was closed and it's owner fined a large 5 figure sum recently for exceeding it's safe capacity amongst other things, so you need to get it right.

[CarlyD]

I have spoken to the fire officer who initially set the capacity to 780 based on fire escapes etc.
I just want to make sure that there is no other way that this can be over-ridden?
The brewery mentioned something about me being able to manually set the capacity? is this true?
Also if we widened the doorway into the fire escape although the actual fire escape is no larger would that make a difference. By the way the nightclub is on the 3rd floor so there are 3 stories to go down.
I obvously don't want to break the law which is why I am asking these questions here!

Thanks

CarlyD

[kurnal]

Do not e misled by the person who is urging you to set your own capacity. Sadly many of the brewerys these days paint a very rosy picture to prospective landlords to entice them in then cast them adrift and watch callously as they sink.
There are standard methods for calculating the safe capacity of a building. These methods are tried and tested and are described in Approved Document B for the Building Regulations and inthe Fire Safety guides issued by the Government. All these are available for free download.  Take a look here:

http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/fire/firesafetyrisk

Step 1- measure the  avasilable floor area in sq m and multiply it by the density factor- 1 sq m per person for dance floors, 0.5 sq m per person for general bar area, 0.3 sq m per person for a  crush bar.
Step 2- the most important bit- Look at the number. location, travel distance to exits, width and direction of opening of doors and width of staircases and corridors. Then apply the tables in the document. eg for 200 persons you need 2 exits each 1 metre wide throughout their length.
Step 3- check that fire on the floors below cannot affect your nightclub for at least one hour and that all doors in the staircases are fire resisting self closing doors in good condiition.

Take the advice of the fire officer. He has no interest whatsoever in deceiving you- unlike the brewery.

[CarlyD]

Hi Kurnal, Thank you for your obviously well informed response.
I will trust the fire officer's opinion as you suggest, I don't want anyone to get hurt in there!

Thanks again

CarlyD

[CarlyD]

Hi Kurnal, This is strange!
I have visited another venue which is smaller than my venue, and from what I could see had less fire escapes.
There were way more than the 780 that we have.
Is it actually possible that the owner/mamager has suggested a higher number? Or is the fire officer's word the law?

Thanks

Carl

[FSO]

CarlyD

What is the occupancy stated in the previous licence?

It sounds to me that you need to have a competent person calculate the capacity for you, but I would seriously doubt that the inspecting officers calculations are incorrect.

There are obviously factors which support this decision (which are difficult to comment without seeing the building), but an issue as simple as being on the 3rd floor would not make matters easier.

Also, there is a mangement issue on yourself about controlling the numbers within the premises too.

Not definitive im afraid, but I would certianally get professional advice. I agree fully Kurnal about the advice you are being given by the brewery. As to setting your own occupancy, I would not want to be in your shoes if it all goes pete tong.

Anyway, good luck

Jay

[CarlyD]

Hi FSO, is it legally possible to set our own capacity?

Thanks

Carl

[jokar]

CarlyD, you need a Premises licence from the local Authority on which it will state the safe capacity of the premises.  This will be set by refernce to a number of other authorities such as the police and the fire authority if the Fire authority make a representation.  They do not have to as they are enforcers of fire safety law under the Regulatory Reform(Fire Safety) Order 2005.  You could get a licence from the local authority and have to make changes if the Fire authority are not happy with the capacity you have had set. There are a number of other things you will need to do to comply with fire safety law amongst which would be to have a recorded fire risk assessment and to have a recorded fire safety policy (on the lines of Health and Safety Guidance Note 65).  No simple task and as suggested above if you do not believe that you have the competence to do this you will need specialist assistance.

[kurnal]

CarlyD

Difficult to say without seeing the building. The methods of calculating the safe capacity of the building has been around for generations. Its tried and tested. Sometimes people ignore the maximum capacity and overcrowd their clubs, obstruct exits,  forget to unlock an exit, or otherwise through ignorance make their premises unsafe.

Take a google on summerland, stardust disco, station nightclub, bradford city football ground. One relevant to you may be the top storey club in Bolton. Theres many many other tragic examples.

Since the change to licensing law standards have plummetted in my opinion. Many local authorities dont bother to challenge the applicant for a premises licence when they either put a silly figure on the application, put together a meaningless operating schedule  or put nothing at all in the box intended for a safety statement. Many local authorities employ scale 1 clerks to process applications and take the view that they are obliged to issue a licence unless they receive an objection. Many fire authorities dont bother to look at licensing applications because they take the view that if there is a problem they will enforce it through the  fire safety legislation- a valid point of view but their systems aren't joind together so they never think to take a look.

So you can probably get away with whatever you want as far as the application form is concerned. Since the demise of the licensing justices its rife. One club owner whom I  carried out a risk assessment and set the right limit of  450 boasts that he packed 900 in on new years eve. I hope it doesnt take a disaster for the authorities to chuck the book at him.

Do you want to fall in this category with your club? I dont think so because you obviously care enough to ask the advice of this forum.
The fire Officer has no vested interest other than not wanting to see people get hurt. Please listen to him or to a responsible consultant. Its not based on scaremongering or spoilsport namby pambys. Its based on real life and death experiences.

[CarlyD]

Hi Kurnal,
Thanks again for your advice. I certainly do not want anyone to get hurt.
The venue is some 15,000 square feet and with just 780 in there it would look empty.
I have been in as a customer when there has been over 1,500 (previous owners let more in) and it still was not packed.
It does have a sprinkler system, does this have any affect?

I am simply trying to balance the safety issues with financial aspects of the business.
I hope that does not sound calous, I am not saying I will risk lives for money - I certainly would not.
The 780 seems to be very low, given that there are x4 fire escapes (x3 excluding the largest one) these are one at 1000m, one at 1100mm and one at 1200mm.

Thank

Carl

[jokar]

CarlyD,  using the table C1 on page 11 out of the LDSA Technical Standards for licensed premises, your safe capacity will probably be in or around the 750 mark.

[CivvyFSO]

CarlyD

Required exit widths are worked out to keep a nice flow of people through the exits at a speed that we would move through an exit unhindered, and generally aim towards a potential 2.5 minute evacuation.

Just to demonstrate from your figures working from exit widths suggested in ADB:

>>one at 1000m<<

You should get 110 people through this exit in 2.5 minutes

>>one at 1100mm<<

You should get 220 through this exit in 2.5 minutes

>>and one at 1200mm. <<

You should get 240 through this exit in 2.5 minutes.

Looks like if your measurements are correct then an occupancy of 570 would be appropriate as per Approved Document B. (This is just an example working from the figures you gave.)

Floorspace would suggest that the building could hold at least 2800 persons. (1400m2 at 0.5m2 per person = 1400/0.5=2800) At 5mm per person that would require 14metres of exit width. (After discounting the largest exit)

At present, if you were to occupy the club to a capacity of 2800, in the event of an emergency your exits can allow out 228 persons per minute. (570 persons takes 2.5 minutes, so 570/2.5 = 228 persons per minute)

So 2800 persons, 228 per minute means 2800/228 = number of minutes necessary to evacuate your club.

2800/228 = 12.3 minutes

As you might imagine, this would not be good.

To throw another light on it: To have enough exits for your potential capacity look at your biggest door available so far; The 1200mm door can allow 240 persons through in 2.5 minutes.

2800 capacity / 240 persons = 11.66

That means you really need 13 of those 1200mm exits (The extra one is to discount) to allow these people out effectively.

Sorry if I have gone on a bit, but I think it demonstrates the difference between having adequate exits, and not having adequate exits.

[Dinnertime Dave]

CarlyD, you need a Premises licence from the local Authority on which it will state the safe capacity of the premises.  This will be set by refernce to a number of other authorities such as the police and the fire authority if the Fire authority make a representation.  They do not have to as they are enforcers of fire safety law under the Regulatory Reform(Fire Safety) Order 2005.  You could get a licence from the local authority and have to make changes if the Fire authority are not happy with the capacity you have had set. There are a number of other things you will need to do to comply with fire safety law amongst which would be to have a recorded fire risk assessment and to have a recorded fire safety policy (on the lines of Health and Safety Guidance Note 65).  No simple task and as suggested above if you do not believe that you have the competence to do this you will need specialist assistance.

Joker, I agree with everything except

'Premises licence from the local Authority on which it will state the safe capacity of the premises.'

Premises Licences certainly to my knowledge do not have safe capacity limits put on them, but a suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment should have.

Most licensing solicitors will try to but as little as possible within the licensing objectives to prevent the need for paying for a variation every time something changes. I don`t have a problem with that. Most licensing objectives are covered by and enforced by other legislation.

[nearlythere]

All guidance, including BS5588 Pt6,  point to the principle that the number of escape routes is based on the occupancy factor and include the discounting of one. Thats great until you read the 3rd pargraph of BS5588 Pt6 6.6.1. which ends by saying:-

"If all exits from the assembly space are final exits, then the fire cannot affect any part of the escape routes outside the assembly space. As any fire should be visible to the occupants at an early stage, it is not considered neccessary to discount one of the exits from such assembly areas if three or more exits are provided."

There's nothing like consistancy, is there?